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Ice Lake for Mainstream Delayed to 2020

Discussion in 'Frontpage news' started by Hilbert Hagedoorn, Sep 25, 2018.

  1. tunejunky

    tunejunky Master Guru

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    first things first, there is a difference in nomenclature (naming) that sounds like it's a standard, but it is not.
    TSMC's 7nm process will perform almost identically to Intel's 10nm.
    secondly, TSMC is delivering that "7nm" and Intel is not delivering their "10nm" any time soon.

    with that out of the way, imho if Intel stops worrying about stock prices and dividend for the short term, they could get off of their ass and build as many five billion dollar fabs as they want to. and that is from cash on hand.
    but under the current guidance, that is as likely as polar bears in Ibiza.
    meanwhile, the amazing management at AMD (being head-hunted is a sign of success) has shocked the world (without hyperbole). the insistence on scale-ability and a clean sheet design were obviously the right call at the right time.
     
  2. tunejunky

    tunejunky Master Guru

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    nope.
    prices will continue on a downward trend on all TSMC Partner production. Apple is bearing the highest level of "the freight" as they are lead partner with the most investment, AMD's Partner production was front-loaded in their contract and worked out between Apple and AMD.
     
  3. TLD LARS

    TLD LARS Member Guru

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    More heat is not going to make a better Ice Lake.
    They are fighting to get something usable out of the 10nm production, so i would guess that the highest priority is to get a fully working Ice Lake, then they can start to improve it afterwards.
    They can not afford to hold back Ice Lake to improve it, when AMD, if according to plan, will have a complete lineup of 7nm before 2020.
     
  4. H83

    H83 Ancient Guru

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    No here to defend Intel but they aren´t on this position because they wanted to milk the same process or same product over and over again. They are only doing that currently since they have no other alternatives because their 10nm process is a giant disaster that simply doesn´t work!!! And until they solve that disaster they will continue to use/milk the same process and products because that´s all they have to offer right now... Yes it´s stupid how a company the size of Intel is in this mess but that´s the way it is...
    About Intel being greedy and all that stuff you guys are right.
     
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  5. cryohellinc

    cryohellinc Ancient Guru

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    If Intel financed their dev teams more, instead of bribing HP and other manufacturers to offer "Intel only" products, I think we might have seen by now Intel 7nm. Sure they have no other option but 14nm right now, but at least we could have seen a shrink to at least 12nm in a form of revision.
     
  6. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Ancient Guru

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    Intel has few goals for 10nm. One not so important for desktop is Power consumption. Really, consumers will not know, not care... marketing takes care of that as always. But that's important for mobile and server, and that's why they need to deliver improvements. And they'll deceive their way out in mobile too as before with SDP values.
    Then there is achievable clock, not important for mobile as it will still clock well against older generations. Starts to be an issue for servers as AMD brings 4GHz on all cores there. But it is absolutely needed for desktop as intel is already selling highly clocked chips out of the box. And nobody wants to pay for side grade on CPU.
     
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  7. H83

    H83 Ancient Guru

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    I´ve read somewhere that Intel is indeed planing a 12nm process as a backup plan for the fail/mess of the 10nm, don´t remember where. As for a 7nm process, i think that´s out of Intel´s reach for the near future specially when they can´t get their 10nm working properly...
     
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  8. tunejunky

    tunejunky Master Guru

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    i don't disagree with your reasoning, just wanted to give you pertinent info.
    pitch size (nanometers) is non-standard due to density.
    Intel's 10nm = TSMC 7nm

    so Intel going to an Intel 7nm is precisely the same as TSMC going to a 3nm process...three to five years.

    i'm fully on the gripe train re:Intel, this is not for excuse making, it's for the correct info
     
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  9. xIcarus

    xIcarus Master Guru

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    If by 'wipes the floor' you mean 'about 10% faster' then yes, Intel definitely wipes the floor with Ryzen in single-threaded.
    Herp derp.
     
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  10. vbetts

    vbetts Don Vincenzo Staff Member

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    I'm pretty sure it's not 10% faster single core? That's a lot bigger of a difference than it sounds. Also let's keep it civil.
     

  11. user1

    user1 Maha Guru

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    It is suspected that intel will downgrade the 10nm process to improve yields, by targeting a lower density. it will still be 10nm transistors, just with the transistors more spreadout , making it alittle more forgiving on precision.
     
  12. sverek

    sverek Ancient Guru

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    I wish Intel could work harder on CPU engineering, rather than wiping floors with consumers wallets XD
    What is it? 7 years of wiping floors? Damn, Intel. Those floors better smell like fresh $100 bills :D
     
  13. NCC1701D

    NCC1701D Active Member

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    I'm not sure you really say AMD got the better of Intel and gave them a cold shoulder though. I mean, it's great that Ryzen performs well enough, but this innovation you speak of still lags behind the performance of Intel chips from many years ago. Sure, they're good bang for the buck compared to what they were, but if you built an Intel rig with a decent CPU in the last half decade, there really isn't a reason to upgrade to Ryzen unless you do professional work with your rig.

    I get it though. People love to hate Intel as they are the big evil corporation in their minds, but I feel this blinds a lot of people. I kind of feel bad for the brand loyal people that bought FX processors to save a few hundred bucks at the cost of performance for all those years.
     
  14. cryohellinc

    cryohellinc Ancient Guru

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    Nothing to do with hate. Business is business and Intel had the lead, however, they have abused their position instead of heavily investing into development. In theory, with Intel's lead 5-6 years ago, their financing, connections and influence, by now they could have been 10 years ahead of AMD.

    Instead of abused their position to maximize income, meanwhile, AMD developed. I never understood fanboys, personally, I go for the best solution in my opinion. Intel can still make 180 turnaround next year, however, as of right now AMD seems as more innovative and attractive option. At least IMO.
     
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  15. H83

    H83 Ancient Guru

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    Could they??? We all know Intel abused their dominant position and stalled progress because of it but we are reaching a wall in terms of process nodes and performance that simply can´t be overcome just by trowing money at it. The perfect example is Intel´s 10nm process, they have spent billions in R&D, equipment and manpower and all they have to show is... a hand full of nothing?... They could have a decent lead over AMD but nothing else in my opinion.
     

  16. cryohellinc

    cryohellinc Ancient Guru

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    There is always room for improvement. I was reading that even if potentially we can get to 1nm, afterwards there are other shrink options and stacking options followed by god-knows-what in the future.

    Budget isn't everything, as money can be easily wasted, which is exactly the case with Intel.
     
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  17. tsunami231

    tsunami231 Ancient Guru

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    I am at a lose as to what Intel is doing, do they truely beleive the there cpu on the market still?

    I'm pretty sure x58 platform is worse build I ever had as far issue went, the i7 -920 killer cpu though, atlest till I replaced it with the 6700k build, it gona be years before i bother to make new build though if ever consider the fact prices on cpu and gpu are going stupid just like dram, but hey SSD prices are going down now o_O
     
  18. H83

    H83 Ancient Guru

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    Agree but in the case of Intel´s 10nm process it seems a question of being really hard.


    For a normal user, smaller dies make little difference but for companies it makes a big difference because they are cheaper leading to more profits. Smaller nodes are another question.
     
  19. user1

    user1 Maha Guru

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    basically all chips are made on what are called wafers, a sillicon disc , most wafers are 300mm in diameter, the smaller the chip, the more chips you can make per wafer, it also lowers the chances any individual chip will be defective. more chips per wafer naturally reduces the cost since you need less fab time per chip(the main cost) and need less raw material per chip.
     
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  20. PrMinisterGR

    PrMinisterGR Ancient Guru

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    I would actually argue that a single Zen core, most likely has equal or better IPC than any of the Lakes. Intel CPUs at the moment are on a monolithic die, which gives them no latency penalties for inter-CCX communication, and they are also much higher clocked. A lot of people also forget the importance of compiler optimizations, and that most of the industry is using the Intel C compiler for performance. Intel will have to eventually use optimizations for Zen in it (they are compelled by a court order :p ), but if you weigh all that in, and in the imaginary world where it is core vs core in the same frequency, I can actually see Zen being faster, or with much better power consumption, at least.
     

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