How will Quad core fair when 8 core Consoles are out?

Discussion in 'Games, Gaming & Game-demos' started by HonoredShadow, May 5, 2013.

  1. The Chubu

    The Chubu Ancient Guru

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    Addressing memory over 4Gb on a 32 bit system requires some overhead for handling virtual addresses (you don't even need to use more than 4Gb, just try to address any memory block above 4Gb). In a 32 bit OS you'll have a 32 bit pointer no matter what so the hardware and OS have to make up for that.

    x86_x64 ABI is cleaner than over-extended x86 calling conventions AND it gives you more CPU registers to play with (well... for the compiler to play with, unless you're into that stuff :D ).

    Its basically "free" better performance. Just like using vectorized SSE2 code instead of plain x87. Theoretically that is, using SSE2 intrinsics is kinda of a black art for most coders. Except for onsole developers, they have (need) quite a bit of ASM junkies :nerd:

    We're talking about very low level. So even a slight adjustment affects every single piece of code out there (compiled for x86_64 that is).
     
  2. 7stars

    7stars Member Guru

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    hey guys :) what about the new Frostbite 3, Unreal Engine 4, Cryengine 4th generation, IW Engine 6.0... even the 4A engine is really good on my rig just now... and so on...
    don't you think we're already on the right way about the multicore/gpu support?
    maybe game developers should bring up to date...and don't use old engines anymore...
    I don't think it's purely a software problem...the software is there, ready to use...
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2013
  3. Carfax

    Carfax Ancient Guru

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    Using a small test file, 64 bit handbrake (nightly build) on my PC is 11% faster than the 32 bit version, which is hardly insignificant. A larger file would probably have showed an even larger improvement. 64 bit mode generally runs faster on x86-64 processors due to having double the amount of registers available.

    Even with LAA flag enabled, you only have a max of 4GB of address space for a 32 bit application. With games becoming bigger and more complex, 4GB won't be enough.

    This definitely isn't true. As I said earlier, games are becoming much bigger and more complex than ever; especially with native 64 bit consoles on the horizon. If you want bigger maps, worlds, more complex levels, faster loading times or even no loading times, then 64 bit is a must.

    Witcher 3 will be native 64 bit, because the game will be completely open World with no loading screens, artificial transitions, or even chapters. The game is completely contiguous from start to finish.

    A game like that would probably not even be possible on a 32 bit system as it will surely require a great deal of memory to store the data for fast access, which is why CDPR decided to release the Witcher 3 on next gen consoles and PC only, as Xbox 360 and PS3 are 32 bit only and memory deficient.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2013
  4. Carfax

    Carfax Ancient Guru

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    Thats a good point. All of the major next gen engines, and some current ones are heavily multithreaded already. Crysis 3 for example uses all of the cores on my 3930K. Metro Last Light made good use of multicore as well.

    In the future, any developer that cannot code their engines properly to support multicore processors, will NOT survive. The AMD CPUs in the PS4 and Xbox One rely on proper multithreading support to perform well. Without it, they will perform horribly.

    Just look at Borderlands 2. That game is a perfect example of how lack of multithreading support can render a game almost unplayable. GPU accelerated PhysX is unviable in BL2 because the game only uses two cores, and so the CPU is getting bogged down with all the extra draw calls required for PhysX. Playing in co-op mode exacerbates the issue..

    Gamers won't tolerate that kind of B.S on their next gen systems, so developers don't really have a choice unless they wish to go out of business.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2013

  5. Solfaur

    Solfaur Ancient Guru

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    I don't think it will be much of a problem judging by how powerfull the performance per core is nowdays and besides true 8 core cpus will probably hit the pc market very soon anyway.
     
  6. 7stars

    7stars Member Guru

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    yes, 'cause it's powered by Unreal Engine 3...
    Tim Sweeney from Epic Games:

    What's the biggest challenge you foresee in shifting from the current engine to Unreal Engine 4?

    "The big challenge that's going to be coming up in the next decade is scaling up to tons of CPU cores. The way we write software today in Unreal Engine 3 is to have one processor handle all the graphics and it's only a single CPU core with another processor that's dedicated to all gameplay that's running on another CPU core... ..."
     
  7. gamerk2

    gamerk2 Ancient Guru

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    But here's the catch: Even running on only two cores, games running on Unreal 3 are not CPU bottlenecked. So what's the advantages, exactly, of threading more, versus the disadvantages (of which there are many)?

    Serial processing can not be made parallel. In addition. you can not thread if both threads have the possibility of touching the same object at the same time; you lose far more performance due to the synchronization you have to add then you gain via threading. Hence why games make poor targets for parallel processing [rendering/physics processing aside; thats what the GPU is for].

    So no, you aren't going to see games magically scale to 8 cores.
     
  8. 7stars

    7stars Member Guru

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    i think that's not true, my rig fx-8320 @ 4ghz is indeed bottlenecked in Bioshock Infinite, Batman Arkham City, Splinter Cell Blacklist, Outlast and so on...and GCN suffers about abnormal frame drops in some areas, despite unparked cores. Every UE3 title is not good to me (maybe better on Intel architecture, but for the IPC only, not for the engine quality or freshness). Instead never an issue with different engines in Tomb Raider, Metro Last Light and Battlefield 3 (e.g. the Frostbite 2 is really more efficient here, so welcome to the F3 for sure)
    anyway I'll have to evaluate new "next-gen" engines for scalability and then the situation will be clearer, maybe now it is too early to draw definitive conclusions.
     
  9. -Tj-

    -Tj- Ancient Guru

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    My cpu is more then ready, gpu not so much lol


    But still bring on next-gen games already, U4E, Luminous engine, etc. :)
     
  10. Carfax

    Carfax Ancient Guru

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    Borderlands 2 is CPU bottlenecked, and it runs on Unreal Engine 3.

    The advantages would be that the CPU can send more data to the GPU to be rendered. This not only increases frame rate, but it can reduce or eliminate annoying issues like object pop in.

    In a graphically detailed game like Crysis 3 with great multithreading support, object pop in is unnoticeable unless you really look for it..

    Can't say the same for Far Cry 3, which is pop in central due to shoddy threading and memory management :eyes:

    You really need to read up on DirectX 11. It covers all of those issues you cited.

    DirectX 11 has something called "Free threaded asynchronous loading," which allows developers to load resources using separate threads without having to worry about synchronization.

    In fact, it's the driver that handles that now. You can have many threads uploading data to the main rendering thread, or alongside it.

    As I said above, developers don't have a choice if they wish to stay in business. And there is no reason why we can't have multithreaded games that scale up to 8 cores.

    CryEngine 3 scales up to 8 cores, but will also use hyperthreading. I typically see activity on all 12 of my threads when playing Crysis 3.

    Frostbite engine 3 should also use up to at least 8 cores, and so will the Unreal Engine 4 and Ubisoft's next gen Disrupt engine which they use for Watch Dogs.
     

  11. Carfax

    Carfax Ancient Guru

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    I'm sure you already know that AMD Vishera only performs well in games which are highly multithreaded, which explains why you get good performance in Metro Last Light and Battlefield 3, because those engines are nicely multithreaded.

    Unreal Engine 3 games on the other hand will scale to four cores, but only one core is reserved for rendering. The others are used for gameplay, loading data and audio.

    So performance won't be as good.
     
  12. Pill Monster

    Pill Monster Banned

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    Which doesn't prove anything...

    No kidding, it was a figure of speech. (AWE is another matter)....And 4GB will be plenty, (see below).

    ^No - consoles use data stre aming so will not need large amounts of memory, they only have 4GB system memory available anyway as the other 4GB is for graphics.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2013
  13. Carfax

    Carfax Ancient Guru

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    What do you mean it doesn't prove anything? You said that the performance gain would be so small as to be negligible, but 11% is hardly negligible.

    Other software like DVD Cloner has big performance increases from using 64 bit:

    [​IMG]

    That's about 56% faster!

    If 4GB is plenty as you put it, why are CDPR and DICE using 64 bit clients in their next gen games? Games are already pushing 2GB in 32 bit, and that's with loading screens, smaller maps and less complex levels, smaller worlds etcetera.

    The consoles use a different memory handling scheme than PCs which is a lot more efficient. Even still, the PS4 and Xbox One will run games like BF4 and Witcher 3 in native 64 bit.
     
  14. Pill Monster

    Pill Monster Banned

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    That's not a game it's file encoding. Show me a 64bit game that runs 56% faster than 32bit version then I'll be impressed.

    Crysis came in 64bit version too, and that was ~7 years ago. Games are using more than 2gb memory right now.


    Consoles can use hUMA which has to be supported by the game (DX11.2 tiled resources). This means all 8GB system and graphics memory can be addressed (prob reason for 64bit .exe's).

    Data ******ing (why is that word censored?) is still the reason consoles don't need more than 4GB system mem...

    **I'm not sure how all that will affect PC ports tbh....more games may need to be installed on SSD's idk.....
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2013
  15. Angushades

    Angushades Guest

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    As I remember when you ran Crysis in 64bit you could view more from a distance, so yea it’s not going to improve FPS as of now but it’s may happen in the future, it sounds like you don't like progression in technology. As for the consoles, I think it’s going to be something like this , 3GB OS – 3GB Game play memory – 2GB textures
     

  16. Pill Monster

    Pill Monster Banned

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    ^Yeah, dunno the exact numbers but sounds about right......
     
  17. Carfax

    Carfax Ancient Guru

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    If you're talking about frame rate, then you're not going to see that kind of an increase.......unless they make a 32 bit game that uses more memory than the 32 bit limitation which is stupid because it would probably just crash.

    The benefits will be things like faster loading, bigger maps and seamless worlds, greater detail and complexity, more destructibility, more complex animations etcetera...

    You can't compare Crysis to these newer games though. Crysis was NOT a native 64 bit game. It was a 32 bit game, with a 64 bit exe tacked on.

    The game didn't come close to utilizing all of the benefits that 64 bit can bring to games. BF4 and Witcher 3 will be native 64 bit games, so we'll see much greater benefits..

    Yeah, and don't you think developers are going to take advantage of all that memory?

    Developers WILL make use of the extended memory space for the new consoles, whether they need it or not.

    Well 64 bit would lessen the need for SSDs, seeing as you can store way more data in memory, and memory loads data faster than any SSD by many orders of magnitude.
     
  18. Carfax

    Carfax Ancient Guru

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    Crysis wasn't a native 64 bit game though. It was a 32 bit game (as in designed for 32 bit primarily) with a 64 bit exe tacked on.

    For a game to truly show the benefits of 64 bit, it has to be built from the ground up with it in mind.
     
  19. Angushades

    Angushades Guest

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    I mean the OS for these consoles sound very bloated, they have both stated to put a lot of effort in social media functions while you game and the consoles can go back and forth to apps while gaming. They are very much like a PC. If I had a choice I would chose the PS4 only cause of that destiny game, looks very good.
     
  20. Angushades

    Angushades Guest

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    Ah ok , i did not know that.
     

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