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How to play pc games at 30fps?

Discussion in 'Videocards - AMD Radeon' started by CrunchyBiscuit, Jan 16, 2013.

  1. CrunchyBiscuit

    CrunchyBiscuit Master Guru

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    Heya!

    I'd really like to know how to cap my games at a rocksolid silky smooth v-synced 30fps @ 60Hz like on a console.

    I've read in many places that nVidia supports some feature called 1/2 refreshrate or somesuch, which sounds pretty much like the option I need. Problem is, I'm on an AMD card.

    I tried RadeonPro's feature called Double VSync which should do the same for AMD cards, but it won't. Most games and applications totally ignore the RadeonPro v-sync settings and for those that do not, the result is far from satisfying (basically the same as manually capping the fps @ 30 using an external framelimiter and v-sync, resulting in judders, but with RadeonPro's option, I get major input lag as well, along with the judders).

    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. JaylumX

    JaylumX Master Guru

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    For me to get the v-sync options to work in Radeonpro i had to use the latest preview version 1.1.1.0. and not the version on the Radeonpro download option tab which is 1.1.0.6. You can link to the latest version from the Radeonpro sticky. If you haven't grab it there.

    The way to tell if your version is the latest one is if you can see a FXAA, SMAA and Ambient Occulsion options. If they are not there then the odds are you have the 1.1.0.6
     
  3. Mufflore

    Mufflore Ancient Guru

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    Cap the framerate to 30fps with MSI afterburner (using the OSD server on the right in the task bar).
     
  4. VladM

    VladM Member

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    Sync every 2 frames if it's available on game's graphic settings.
     

  5. Mr Terry Turnip

    Mr Terry Turnip Master Guru

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    aaahaha what!?

    No really, do you only have one eye or something? or.. it is time for you to get your eyes checked.

    I put up with 60 FPS as 120FPS 120hz is just not possible on todays hardware when using high details, 60FPS at 60hz is very acceptable, but really for me, if there was an inbetween (most TV's are 60hz, and monitors are either 60 or 120 - HUGE HUGE JUMP) so 85hz would be stupendous as that for me is 'SILKY SMOOTH'

    60 is very good though, on my HDTV 60FPS 60hz v-sync is absolutely lovely, however as I said, if the choice was there...

    85 (85 is just about possible on today's hardware, just about - 120? you will only catch that with greasy fast chicken speed)

    now, 30... lol that is simply laughable. slideshow much? to me totally unplayable, and I do not mean not very nice, I mean, unplayable, I own an Xbox however I simply cannot use it, as much as I would love to as I have some great friends on there, COD is ok though, ofc, as it runs at 60FPS (mostly) I have black ops 2 on it - I just MUCH prefer BF3 on the PC
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2013
  6. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Ancient Guru

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    I know only one port from Console which actually runs at 30fps and gives "smooth" experience. It's Split Second.

    Game gives such feeling thanks to perfectly implemented motion blur.
    Playing any game without motion blur will feel extremely choppy at resolutions above 800x600 and screens over 14".

    Lowering details is way to get smooth experience @60Hz/fps.

    I personally play @120Hz and w/ 120fps even isometric RPGs like Sacred/PoE where it's not that big deal to be at 60fps.
    (Still very noticeable difference.)
     
  7. Mr Terry Turnip

    Mr Terry Turnip Master Guru

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    We need more people like this guy, putting in the demand for 120FPS

    I applaud him.

    With people like this it makes it allot easier for ppl like me ot get a solid 60FPS at 60hz.

    120FPS 120hz gaming is a god send.
     
  8. Deathchild

    Deathchild Ancient Guru

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    :D rofl

    He has become the prophet of 120hz 120fps gaming.
     
  9. CrunchyBiscuit

    CrunchyBiscuit Master Guru

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    I tried the proper version with the FXAA and SMAA options, but the double v-sync option refuses to do anything on most titles I try it with (the program works because stuff like AA and AF is applied properly, but not the v-sync options). Saints Row the Third does actually react to the setting, meaning it actually does cap the fps to half of the refreshrate with that game, but it's sloppy, stuttery and laggy, not at all what I'm looking for.

    Better to just manually cap the fps using an external fps limiter, I'll still get the sutters (v-sync enabled) or the tearline (v-sync disabled) but at least it's consistent and not as laggy, but both methods aren't what I'm looking for, since they both don't result in a silky smooth 30fps v-synced console experience.

    Which is the same as any other external fps limiter, it won't limit the framerate to EXACTLY half of my Hz and thus still results in either visible judders (with v-sync on) or a very annoying tearline (v-sync off). It won't give me the smoothness I'm looking for.

    Yes! This sounds like exactly what I'm looking for, but how to do this on an AMD/ATi card? I know nVidia has an option for it, but I know of no games that offer anything like this. Maybe Rage, but that's just one game which I don't even play. RadeonPro looked promising, but as described, no luck there.

    I do not wish to enter this discussion, nor do I understand where you got the impression that I would somehow PREFER 30fps over 60fps, heck, of course I'd love me some 60fps @ 60Hz action all the time! 120fps @ 120Hz, even better!

    Most games I play can run at a solid 60 fps on my system, but some games I like to play just can in no way maintain 60 fps, so I have to cap them to a lower value, since I'd rather play at a consistent lower framerate than a wildly fluctuating higher framerate. 30fps is the first value counting down from 60 that can potentially be smooth, provided it's perfectly capped and v-synced. And there's the problem, I can't get 30 fps to be perfectly smooth. I either have to put up with the stutters (in case of v-sync), or with the tearline (without v-sync). Neither are satisfying. On consoles it isn't a problem though, if the hardware is able to maintain 30fps, it's a perfect 30fps indeed, no judders, no tearlines, no skips or hitches. Just a smooth and consistent 30fps 'slideshow' as you call it.

    While I wouldn't exactly call 30fps a slideshow, I know where you're coming from and after getting used to 60fps@60Hz or even 120Hz, it's quite a bummer going back to 30fps. I agree on that, but that's not the issue.

    But what if details are already lowered and it doesn't really make a difference? Still get framedrops on low, same as on high. A tiny bit smoother but only in the range of 5 fps, still not enough for a solid 60.

    Man, I wish I could play all my games at 120Hz with 120fps, unfortunately that's just not gonna happen, not on my current system at least.

    I'm talking about scenario's where there's no option to play at 60 fps and higher, if there was, I would. Saints row never dips below 30fps on my machine, but doesn't often hit 60 fps either. It's averaging at about 35-45, perfect candidate for a 30 fps cap.

    While I totally agree, this is not the issue nor a solution.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2013
  10. Mr Terry Turnip

    Mr Terry Turnip Master Guru

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    Very fair comments.
     

  11. CrunchyBiscuit

    CrunchyBiscuit Master Guru

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    So, any ideas?

    A properly capped smooth v-synced 30fps has been on my wishlist since the rage pro days :wanker:

    Might actually have to go nVidia to finally see it in action.

    Can someone who owns an nVidia card tell me if their 1/2 refreshrate cap fps option works as advertised?
     
  12. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Ancient Guru

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    We told you already to use RadeonPro. You have it, but may have really old version.

    Go to Tweaks, Click "Dynamic Frame Control" and write "30" next to it into field named "Keep up to".
    Works exactly as you want it to. Tested in CounterStrike, AvP 2010, DoW 2: Retribution, ...

    No big deal. You should have seen it, it's there for long time.
     
  13. CrunchyBiscuit

    CrunchyBiscuit Master Guru

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    No it doesn't. This is the same as using a manual external cap, which won't sync the fps to exactly half of my refreshrate, hence it still judders (v-sync on) or tears (v-sync off).
     
  14. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Ancient Guru

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    Well, here is in detail with proof how RadeonPro DFC works:
    - It evenly distributes rendering of frames over time
    - Delays between frames are in average 1/fps which for 30 fps results in about 33.33 ms
    - if there is frame delayed another frame is rendered immediately to compensate frame rate (if resources are available anyway)
    [​IMG]

    This is DFC 30fps from Down of War 2: Retribution (built in Benchmark) max. details.

    Data collection run for 55 seconds which should be 55*30=1650 data samples.
    Because compensation was not strong enough only 1647 samples got collected(rendered) which resulted in 3 times lower measured fps.

    This all prooves RadeonPro DFC Functionality:
    1st - Game is rendered at 30fps
    2nd - Frames are evenly distributed over time as much as possible

    And what more, there is no microstutter/judder/tearing at all with DFC.
    (well, I actually could see 1st and last spike since they were not compensated and 60+ ms delay is huge for me)

    Personal Note To Myself: Never play games at Large screen with 30fps limit, it sux.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2013
  15. Remedy

    Remedy Member

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    You can use Dxtory to cap the FPS at 30...
     

  16. CrunchyBiscuit

    CrunchyBiscuit Master Guru

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    Sure, I'm convinced the frame distribution (the timing at which frames are displayed and the moments inbetween) is pretty accurate and consistent from one frame to another while using a manual fps capper, like the one provided by RadeonPro (or Dxtory, the one I currently use most, since it works with fewest issues and side effects).

    Frame distribution by itself, while related, isn't the problem which I'm trying to describe. The problem is that the frame distribution doesn't sync with the refreshrate of the monitor. The manual framecapper can not 'see' what refreshrate the monitor is set at. The rate at which frames are released doesn't exactly line up with the rate at which the monitor refreshes - hence the problem of judder and tearing still persists.

    Actually, there is and are. The only thing the manual fps cap method will indeed often solve is cases of microstutter (uneven frame distribution). Tearing will always occur when v-sync is disabled, whether you're using a capper or not and whether you're aware of it or not (I'm very sensitive to it). When v-sync is enabled, judder will occur instead of tearing when the framerate doesn't exactly line up with the monitor's refreshrate, or half of it, or a third of it etc - which it doesn't while using a manual fps cap, for reasons explained above (capper doesn't know/can't see the exact refreshrate).

    It's also very perceivable to the naked eye without having to rely on formulas or graphs, at least it is to mine.

    To properly put this on a graph you'd need to know both the timing/rate of the monitor's blank intervals and the timing/rate of the frame output, not just the latter. This would enable you to line 'em up and compare 'em.

    The problem of judder is well known in the tv industry, but people in the gaming graphics industry are becoming more aware of this too luckily, so nVidia came up with their 1/2 refresh option as an alternative means to cap the framerate while also counteracting judder (it lets the monitor dictate the rate at which frames are displayed just like regular v-sync but at half rates, instead of a manual framerate capper which basically just has to 'guess' at the refreshrate) and the makers of RadeonPro also came up with an option resembling nVidia's method - the 'Double Vsync' option (at least I assume this is what it's supposed to do, having read the description the program provides).

    RadeonPro's Double Vsync option sounds like exactly what I'm looking for, it's the sole reason I downloaded the program about a week ago. But it won't work for me. All it does is just enable regular v-sync for nearly every game I tested it with. The only game (from the games I tried) that actually reacts to the setting aside from only applying v-sync is Saints Row 3, but the results aren't what they're supposed to be (still judders, just like using a manual cap, but with lag as well). It certainly does try though, because when I set the refreshrate of my monitor to 75 Hz, the fps gets capped at 37/38fps instead of 30, so it's not like the game is completely ignoring RadeonPro's Double Vsync option.

    Does the Double Vsync feature work as intended for you guys? I'd really love to know of a way to get this to work properly, I want me a smooth v-synced framerate at half refreshrate, but still haven't been able to produce this.

    It's what I've been using for the last year, I used the FPS_Limiter hook before. Dxtory does it's job properly but it isn't much different from any other manual fps capper and it doesn't offer a solution to the problem I'm asking help with.

    Luckily I'm not alone in this quest for a smooth judderfree 30fps and sometimes encounter people during my search for a solution (here, here, here, here, here and here for example) that know about the issue I'm trying to describe and are just as perfectionistic (or neurotic, whatever you wanna call it) about this issue as I am, but I still seem to be out of options as an AMD/ATi card user =(

    Lately nVidia and RadeonPro seem to be on the ball, so there's hope.

    While typing this post, I decided to install some more games just to try out RadeonPro's Double Vsync setting some more, and hey! I actually found two games with which the Double Vsync setting completely works as intended, which is super! This means that at least the option works on some games and isn't completely broken as I had feared. Also the result is precisely what I want, a perfectly smooth v-synced framerate at exactly half the refreshrate. The games I tested that don't properly react to the setting (still display 60 fps visually as well as on the counter) are the Back to the Future series, Borderlands 2, Broken Sword - The Sleeping Dragon, CitiesXL 2012, Dead Island, Singularity, Syndicate and The Darkness II. With Torchlight II the counter actually displays double framerates instead of half (120 at 60Hz, or 150 at 75Hz) but really it just runs at the refreshrate of the monitor like the previously mentioned games and the framerate counter is merely fooling around. Risen crashes when trying to force the setting. Both Saints Row the Third and Aliens vs Predator do actually try to halve the framerate like they should, but it's sloppy and juddery. Aliens vs Predator does a better job at it than Saints row though, but sometimes the game will completely ignore RadeonPro and not even the counter will get displayed. The only two games that work flawlessly for me with the Double Vsync setting enabled are Deus Ex - Human Revolution and Two Worlds II, both give a smooth and perfect vsynced 30fps (in case of 60Hz) on a pc, just like on a console, no judders, no skips or hitches, absolutely great! Problem is, those two games are capable of running a perfect 60fps and beyond on my system anyway, so I don't need to limit their framerate output to 30fps at all. I need this setting to work with Saints Row 3, CitiesXL 2012 and Torchlight II, which often dip below 60fps.

    I'm looking forward to a fully functional implementation of this feature, it's currently obviously a bit buggy, at least for me. I like to think this is because it's still a preview/beta feature and issues will be ironed out over time, clearly there's hope as I discovered today, since the setting works exactly as advertised on some titles at least. Any ideas on how to get it to work with the titles I'm having issues with? I tried closing and disabling all third party apps I often use (like ATi Tray Tools, Dxtory, Powerstrip) to test, but no matter what, the results are always the same.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2015
  17. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Ancient Guru

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    Well, now while you realize what you want, you do not realize way you get it in 1st place.

    With VSync ON (limited or not), there is no difference on what you see on display with regards Double vs Triple buffering.
    With VSync OFF Triple Buffering removes tearing (As long as it works as designed). While Double Buffering does not positively affects it.
    Triple buffering main advantage is to allow higher performance, since you have 2 back-buffers available for rendering and on for displaying.

    Now from "feeling" point of view
    VSync ON + DFC 30fps + Tripple Buffering produces:
    - Evenly distributed frames displayed on screen across time (No microstutter)
    - If I hit rotation key with no acceleration, objects will with each frame move exactly same number of pixels in margin of error 1 pixel (No Judder)
    - VSync Prevents... Yes, frame Tearing!
    - Negative side is Input lag: 1000Hz mouse = 1ms, Windows event handling mechanism = 15ms, 30FPS limit = 33ms, VSync = variable 1-33ms

    Which leaves you with minimum input lag on PC side as big as 50ms and up to 82ms. Then add your display processing lag 1-13ms and physical GtG/BtB LED lag between 2-8ms.
    That's horrible thing.
    While 60fps limit leaves you with PC lag of 34 to 51ms. Let alone 120fps: 25 ~ 33ms.

    That alone explains why so many people do not use vsync and want to get as many fps as possible.

    Back to the 1st line.
    You have same behavior on PC as on console from technical point of view.
    Difference is that PS3 1080p is actually 960x1080pixels upscaled. Consoles simply use Low resolution and filter images up.
    There are even resolutions as 880x720 in play.

    Those more or less blurry images at 30fps feel fluent because edges on each pixel are covering more space and your brain is calculating it for you.
    Games rendered at 960x1080 with just pixel doubling still feel pretty fluent, but with increased resolution and display size you really need to have higher frame rate to provide that fluent feel you want to get.
    You can ask yourself: Why Doom 2 at 30fps feels 10times smoother than Counter Strike 1.6 at 30fps? (It feels nearly as CS @60fps)

    You already have technology you want at hand, now it's time to face reality. High resolution, big screen gaming is not something what can feel fluent at 30fps.

    If you do not believe me, then believe John Carmack for whom was 60fps @60Hz far from enough at 90° view. And therefore have 120Hz HMD at hand. (I want one too :) )

    Now days our displays cover about 45° of our view. At time 30fps was common we had 14" screens which covered less than 25° of our view.
    If you hooked small 14" screen next to nice 42" TV you would realize it immediately. (Difference in distance in degrees how much objects move frame after frame on each screen).

    Now this was long, and I actually do not intend to write to this tread again as you have all required tools at hand, and everything got explained. Except that your links complains mainly about nVidia solution.

    And if you need anything more regarding this, my answer is "PICNIC".
     
  18. BAZOKA1942

    BAZOKA1942 Member Guru

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    put in main that amd had problem in latency for hd 7950 especially in some game up over 100 ms
    so they will fixed in 13.2
    so try maybe catalyst 13.2 beta and see
    and for saint row its a bad port and plz install all updates and test again
    for radeon pro almost games run with fully functions but those two games report to japamd he will see and fix them if there is an issue
    and you screen really affect how much speed ms or use fast display mode like samsung
    close background application cause i feel like your problem is so advanced and not normal because i have hd 4850 almost games without vsynce and even triple-buffer at 30 fps and below i have not a lot tearing or micro stuttering .. !?
    try to lower ram clock frequency cause too hot and tearing
    disable ulps
    use radeon pro and make file queue size to 1 or 0 and see
    and will have the most smoothed experience
     
  19. Stu @ MSD

    Stu @ MSD Member Guru

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    Are you sure? ;)

    COD BO2 - ultra Settings displayed at 5760x1080 @ 120hz.
    Framerate = 180 - 200FPS when online.
    (Framerate top right corner of middle screen)

    [​IMG]


    Easier titles set high, like HAWX 2 can easy exceed 300fps on the same settings.

    [​IMG]

    Your just need some extra 7970's ;)
     
  20. Stu @ MSD

    Stu @ MSD Member Guru

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    On a more serious note - this advice should work fine. :)
     

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