How Do You Make the World A Better Place?

Discussion in 'The Guru's Pub' started by nvlddmkm, Jun 14, 2011.

  1. Xbrain

    Xbrain Master Guru

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    Yeah the funniest thing with Africa is that northern people think it's miserable because it's poor. The truth is that is is miserable because it's rich.
     
  2. The Chubu

    The Chubu Ancient Guru

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    Exactly.
     
  3. PhatKat

    PhatKat Banned

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    Word, nerd.:)
     
  4. Kaleid

    Kaleid Ancient Guru

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    A lot more. Many of the bad regimes are supported by other governments.
    Second, and this is important, there have been concious efforts to make sure many of these nations never get out of debt. For further details I recommend the book confesssions of an economic hitman.
     

  5. BigBlockTowncar

    BigBlockTowncar Ancient Guru

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    Yeah, lol, I am.....Obviously Mao wasn't an economist. You don't change an entire country from farming rice to smelting steel, building aircraft and skyscrapers in a matter of a few years. A free market may not have worked in the ridiculous timeline that he had decided on, but at least the 40 - 60 million people would not have starved to death.



    China's economy is pathetic considering their GDP is less than half of the USA, with 4 times the population---and basically all we have to go on concerning their growth and stability are numbers given to us by the ruling party. I don't know the exact numbers, but Japan (a free society) is not far behind China, with about a 10th of the population. If you want to debate the advantages and disadvantages of a government having 100% control of its population, media, economy, currency, trade barriers, etc, you should start a thread for that.
     
  6. Jonnyboy

    Jonnyboy Ancient Guru

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    I would get ride of the polititians cause they always seem to be the cause of the worlds problems.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2011
  7. Jonnyboy

    Jonnyboy Ancient Guru

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    where I live in cali rent is like 1700 for a 2 bed 2 bath
     
  8. MrH

    MrH Ancient Guru

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    Nuke certain parts of the world.
     
  9. The Chubu

    The Chubu Ancient Guru

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    Yes. They would have died cuz starvation was an issue before Mao did anything. Specially when capitalistic approach is "if you have money you eat, if you dont, too bad". My bet is that even more ppl would have died. Mao wasnt an economical approach, Mao give the country a direction to follow. Took time but now you can see what direction with a billion ppl country can do. Now they have all the western countries by the balls.

    USA is friggin small compared to China if you didnt noticed. Do you think that ruling a billion and a half ppl country is easy? That with a few measures you can solve 1.500 million ppl issues? Besides. China is far, far away from comunism. Its a bad example of your comunism hate from the start.

    Cuba is a little more close. But you dont see Cubans that dont know to read, without ther medication or without food dont you?

    I dun like the sacrifices that China made. But i do acknowledge that they know what they're doing. Thats the least you can do. China just hasnt the same ideas bout how to rule a country than other countries of the world. Thats all. You cant expect a chinesse thinking exactly as you, you that lives on the another half of the world. We're dealing with different cultures, different ways of viewing the world.

    Anyway, you dont need numbers from China to know what China can do. You see their projects, their reach, you see their products everywere, you see them everywhere. I dun need numbers to know that. Just look around.


    Japan is another bad example cuz its in his way to become a nuclear wasteland thanks to the private companies managing nuclear plants (and the state doing sht bout it of course, cuz that how free market works, half the country goes to hell and if there is a private company in between you cant do sht bout it). Another point when free market fails. You cant expect a company to act for the good of the people cuz its nice and all cute...

    LOL. Did i mentioned China or Mao in the first place? Dont trow stones at me buddy. I didnt started this.
     
  10. JohnMaclane

    JohnMaclane Ancient Guru

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    What a load of tripe.

    Mao was no better then any other soviet era leader, the great leap forward was a screw up because it directly starved people in an era where chinas exports just weren't happening. Mao also embraced the disastrous soviet doctrine of farm collectivisation which as usual ended up in disaster with more starvation and farmers getting screwed. Wealth in china started increasing in the 1970s thanks to nixon and others which saw the opportunity of exploiting cheap labour thanks to the wonderful land Mao created. After that landmark economic reforms (politburo controlled capitalism) in the 80s ( due to a particular economist forgot his name) changed china and has resulted in its swift industrialisation and its current lead.

    China is a communist state no matter what you say. The only arm of the government which is not communist is the economic arm and even there its not exactly capitalism, more state corporation-ism (state controls every aspect of foreign investment in the country).

    Also get your facts straight, chinas economy is still smaller then the US and is predicted to become the n1 economy in 2020 ish, however I'm not a real fan of GDP as an indicator of economic power I think PPP (purchasing power parity) per capita is a much better indicator of the well being of a country and china is on the ****ty end of the list.

    Also saying that Mao saved people and helped start the economy is bs. I can mention many instances of countries WORSE off than china which took the right steps and industrialised faster then china without cultural revolutions or great leaps. Think Italy, Germany, France, Malta etc all countries which iun 1945 had ZERO.

    Japan isn't a nuclear wasteland, what a douche comment and a clear indicator of your intelligence. Coincidentally Japan is the country which got nuked twice and felt the wrath of ww2 yet still managed to industrialise faster then china, even after the earthquake the average Japanese has more spending power then a Chinese.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2011

  11. The Chubu

    The Chubu Ancient Guru

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    lol

    I didnt said Mao saved ppl. I said that i think that a capitalistic approach from the beggining (ala South Korea or Singapore) would have fckd up more the country. It wasnt in a state to be able to do such things successfully. For total privatizing and such, you have to have a good hand in managing all that. If you start to sell 600 million ppl that didnt know how to read, nor could eat enough, to the highest bidder in the western world you get a great fck up (massive corporate slavement, in worse conditions than today's China). China needed direction, and the communst goverment of that time give it direction. After that they knew what they had to do. What they did after to keep going that way is something different.

    Embracing capitalism economics its the worst thing you can embrace from capitalism. So no, it isnt communism. Its ripping the foundation of communistm. Without state controlled companies and with all that labour force working for corporations of other origins, communism is nothing. Just a red flag. Communism leads production, distribution, all of it. If you broke the chain at some point, the rest falls too.

    Ehh... I didnt said that it was the largets economy on the planet. I said 2nd economy if i recall, its somewhere in the posts above. My facts were already pretty straight i think.

    I said, its in its way to be one. Before going to psychology, try to learn to read first.

    Yeah. Italy, germany, france... I think that you are short of countries if you want to make a comparison against china. See my point?

    Japan are a reeeeaaaaaally fckd up country. Counting the suicides or not.

    Anyway, both countries have completely different industries. China has nowhere the high tech industry that Japan has. Japan develops and produces technology, China mostly produces it at most. There is a lot of added value in recent technologies. Besides than Japan by that time had a great help of USA. They didnt do it by themselves. And still they're saying they failed to "import" capitalism ideas of USA after 50 years. See? Fckd up country. In the head.

    BTW, by that time, half China was part of Japan. China was losing the battle to them thus was in a worse shape. Civil war, invasion, hunger, the japanese were doing biological weapon research on chinese villages, using toxic gas on them also, spreading plagues, it was a massive **** hole by that time. And you think that was all Mao's fault? And you think that europe had it worse?
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2011
  12. Deckard

    Deckard Master Guru

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    Force all of the worlds drug companies to open there books in a tranparent way for all to see, announce what cures they really do have and not just for the rich..

    politician should do there work to better themsleves no expenses perks at all, If you have to pay for transport to goto work, do what the rest of us do, pay it out of your own pocket.

    No 2nd home paid for by the people, we all choose where we live if you spend most of your time somewhere else move there.

    Find an alternative source to OIL, so we can stop blowing countrys up that have more oil than america.

    Respect alternative ways of life, not everybody thinks/acts/lives like you!

    Get rid of all Religion. that is the biggest killer on the planet... more people kill each other in the name of religion...than anything else. funny thing is no one can prove either way if there is such a thing as religon until your dead!! oh the irony, perfect for keeping the people in line... fear of the unknown.


    Disarm all nuclear warheads destroy them/ spend the defence budget on feeding the homeless
    and starving. should only take a year!!! if the entire world defense budget was spent on the hungry /homeless.

    Of course none of the above will happen in my lifetime.

    Deck.
     
  13. JohnMaclane

    JohnMaclane Ancient Guru

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    So there wasnt an alternative you are saying? because thats bs. Democratic governments across Europe managed to develop ruined nations in 20 years.

    I do not think china embraces capitalist policies very much. It still has a very government controlled economy. Infact if you want to open a factory in china you have to deal directly with the cummunist government, they usually demand part of the profits in terms of ownership (very communist) and in intellectual rights/patents (smart communism?). This is very different then in western countries were the government rarely directly enters the business realm.


    Your right about the n2 comment, sorry.

    What psychology? I was just talking in terms of economics. China being the first economy doesnt mean much because of the population size. This means that to achieve the same well being as say a western European country china would have to have a much larger economy then that of the USA. Hence the PPP reference.

    Maybe in Argentina they didnt teach you how Italy was one of the poorest countries in europe both before and after the ww2 and how a certain event called WW2 turned most of europe into a pile of rubble with people starving to death. Infact it was so bad in the early days of peace (after ww2) that food rations had to be introduced in the UK and the US had to intervene economically.

    You are wrong, Japan post ww2 was poor as any other place and the US did not give marshal aid to the island, the korean war jump started the economy for Japan but most of the post ww2 economic recovery was Japanese alone.


    Of course Europe and Japan had it worse you forgot ww2 wasn't fought in Manchuria (the part of chine Japan annexed), Japan surrendered because they got nuked twice. Dude your history is all over the place.
     
  14. anticupidon

    anticupidon Ancient Guru

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    it is very hard task
    human nature acts in a strange ,good/evil way
    if i am not mistaken Descartes told that in search of personal hapiness it is possible ,without knowing or realising it ,that we could give such a hard time to others,and them to us,so it is nasty circle....
    but maybe i am dead wrong here
     
  15. BigBlockTowncar

    BigBlockTowncar Ancient Guru

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    You have absolutely no way of knowing this, and no historical references to support your claim that a free market could be linked to tens of millions of deaths due to starvation. Free societies have churches, foodbanks, welfare systems that can donate food to those in need. In China, "you church you lose" (4chan reference-heh).

    Wasn't economical? I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing here. Some direction...gangster capitalism, no work safety laws or worker's rights, no freedom of speech, press, religion, etc. To use your analogy, they might have us by the balls, but they are sure going to be gentle, as without us, they have no one to buy their crap.

    I've noticed...so you're an apologist for the unjust nature of the unelected Chinese gov't--simply because it's hard to "rule" that many people?

    Your choice of words is very telling of your "tendencies"....Ruling? This isn't the middle ages, there should be no kings or queens or all-powerful gov'ts ruling over us.

    So it's ok to throw political dissidents and people who want to go to church into a prison because of a "different way of viewing the world?" (They have a Nobel prize winner in prison right now---ohhh, the irony)

    Let's say I am the CFO for a company, (we'll just call it Enron). I realize that we are losing money every quarter, but I decide to release numbers and figures to the SEC and my investors that say we are running in the black and making great profits. Do numbers still not matter to you? Other than speculation and what the Chinese gov't decides to release to us, we don't know that much about the inner workings, the flaws, the real numbers. You trust the current regime to provide you with accurate data, even when we know they purposefully give their currency a false value?

    So Japan is a bad example of how an Asian society with some similar aspects of culture to the Chinese (honor, dignity, respect etc.) can flourish with a free market system only because they have nuclear power plants? The USSR had gov't (communist) run nuclear power...even back in 1986...."Get out of here STALKER".

    No, I did...which was a good example of what the original debate was about (overpopulation, starvation, and gov't failures). You kind of just railroaded what we were talking about into communist propaganda which is why I suggested you make a different thread for it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2011

  16. The Chubu

    The Chubu Ancient Guru

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    Said once, and i'll said it again. Europe had it as bas as China. Read what i said.

    I do. What can i say. I define communism more from how the ppl is rather than how much control the goverment has over the country. If the ppl are all working for capitalism interests, it isnt communism. Its a shame.

    All right...


    I was talking bout you "questioning" my intelligence by statement that i did not wrote. Questioning intelligence by just a statement seems a psychology analysis matter, thus, first read well, then you can get to psychology.

    Tha we dont know. As i said several times. If you had opened the market just like that, you'd have massive corporate enslavement of the workers. Imagine what is todays china, but with starvation, not enough energy, a very weak country just cant afford to begin privatizing just like that. You need a strong goverment that can manage that. If not, you're putting the country in the table as a bet.

    I should know buddy. Its estimated that 60% of Argentina are italian descent. Dun remember well, two of the countries with more italians, besides italia of course, was Argentina and... Germany i think? Dun remember. Was there somewhere in an article in the (spanish) Wikipedia.

    Massive emigration from italia, because economical reasons, led a lot of italians into the country at the end of XIX century. Then more when first world war hitted. Then also got some inmigration here from zarists russians (that ironically were executed for beign suspected of beign communist and anarchists), portuguese, spanish, etc.

    US intervened aaaall along the "recovering" of Europe. Also lotsa economical (and thus, ideological also) advice to Japan. Thus creating what they are today. Fcdk up country.

    Japan didnt wanted to be a capitalist country all of sudden cuz its wonderfull. There were efforts made to asist Japan in economical teachings and such by the US.

    Yep. Thats why Chinese were saved. But anyway, the Japanese fckd up pretty bad China. And Chinese ppl fighting between themselves didnt help either. Massive crimes of war were made against Chinese ppl. Like experimentation with POWs (mostly, communist chinese) by the Japanese, human vivisections for example.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2011
  17. The Chubu

    The Chubu Ancient Guru

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    FCK!!! I think that half my post got eated by characters limit lol Damn, almost all the post quoting BigBlockTowncar got eated by the forum...

    EDIT: Here! Thanks caché! :)

    In capitalism. "You no money you lose". Maybe they should have free health care like the US! Oh wait... Those welfare system that you speak of also requires an ammount of direction from the ppl. It isnt like everybody is going to donate and help each other cuz the goverment allowed a "free market". For any approach that you want to make, you need a lot of direction, you need a message. Open up your market just like that doesnt give a message to anybody, unless of course, a "Im selling my ass of! Really cheap!". And that ammount of direction cant be archieved by just doing that. You need YEARS of trying to change the country. And, in those years that a capitalistic approach (if you wanted to do it well at least), a lot of ppl would have died too.

    Lol, you better buy their crap. Do you think that companies could actually afford to make their products elsewere right now? You'd be proper fckd.

    Read above, below, everywhere i've discussed it. Takes time, now China isnt facing the same issues that they had before.

    Another one that wants to go with psychology tests... Say that to all of your "free people with free markets" from Europe that still maintain constitutional monarchies with money from the citizens.

    What kind of question is that? Didnt USA persecute a lot of black rights activists and also socialist activists along its road of "free land" ? But thats okay cuz they're bad and wrong i guess so you're pointing your finger elsewere right now?

    See? Capitalism fails. Those things happens.

    Nope. I trust that if the Chinese are able to sell "crap" to the rest of the world, they do have a long damn arm. Numbers or not. Besides, i dunno much bout your inner workings too. Did you really kill Osama and trew him on the ocean just like that? Obama is as bad as Fox News says? And all those Wikileaks cables? What about the Al Qaeda leader that the CIA waterboarded 170 times and still keep interrogating him like if he had something to say? You've got your own issues of trust and public information. Free market or not.

    Didnt you said that you didnt know bout the "inner workings" of China already?

    Yeah. They did have a catastrophe far bigger than Japan and its a fact that they dealt with it far better than the Japanese approach of waiting to somebody do something...

    Nah, you put an "example" of the beggining of a communist country. China today doesnt have such problems that you mentioned. Do you see 50 million chinese dying today? It takes time to fix such things. You're nitpicking facts and situations.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2011
  18. gurusan

    gurusan Master Guru

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    Smoke more pot
     
  19. BigBlockTowncar

    BigBlockTowncar Ancient Guru

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    I'm not sure if it is the language barrier, but you are quoting me and then going off on a tangent, and then posting "I told you so" type statements and it really has nothing to do with the things that I brought up. You clearly didn't understand the point I was trying to make in the first place--and nothing that you have said has anything to do with the ongoing population debate.

    There are downsides to a free market, I understand that. But nothing is even close to the downsides of communism.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2011
  20. The Chubu

    The Chubu Ancient Guru

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    : / As you wish then...
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2011

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