Health insurance just got canceled.

Discussion in 'The Guru's Pub' started by PhazeDelta1, Sep 23, 2013.

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  1. sykozis

    sykozis Ancient Guru

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    Nobody in the US seems to believe in the constitution as it's written.....at least not publicly. If you read the constitution as it's written, the second amendment would be used to take away a lot of guns....whereas people seem to interpret it as having an all encompassing right to own guns. The second amendment specifically states
    According to the wording, the "founding fathers" didn't intend for every Tom, Dick and Harry to own a gun. Only those who would be considered members of a regulated state militia were intended to "keep and bear arms".

    That issue aside, like most laws in the US, even the constitution is up for interpretation. Everyone interprets it differently, for their own purposes. However, great ideas come from every governmental structure whether it be Democratic, Republic, Socialist, Communist, etc.... They all have their advantages and drawbacks. You can't simply look at a law and declare it bad just because of the Governmental beliefs that created the law.
     
  2. IcE

    IcE Don Snow Staff Member

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    I've seen that interpretation way too many times. Too bad you have to actually look at one of the definitions for what qualifies as a "militia"

    ": the whole body of able-bodied male citizens declared by law as being subject to call to military service"

    Therefore, if you're in the selective service system, you have a guaranteed right to bear arms due to the second amendment.

    So no, they didn't mean only a "regulated state militia". If they did, it would have been stated as such.

    Also, the right for citizens to create their own militia is also protected.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2013
  3. scheherazade

    scheherazade Ancient Guru

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    Months before the war began, there were ex CIA analysts interviewed on NPR, talking about how they were fired for refusing to "discover" WMD intel that their higher-ups had handed them.

    Admittedly, I wasn't watching much TV at the time, and when I heard we were going to war, I was rather surprised. I thought everyone would have been aware of the sham.

    -scheherazade
     
  4. scheherazade

    scheherazade Ancient Guru

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    Checken and the egg here.

    Revolutionary era militias were private paramilitaries. Community organizations, internally regulated.
    More like today's Blackwater than like today's National Guard or military.

    You could read the 2nd amendment as "only a well regulated militia can bear arms", but then the statement becomes void.
    - You can't form a militia without guns.
    - And you can't get guns without a militia.

    To make the 2nd amendment not "moot", it's read as "In order to have the ability to form a militia, you have the right to bear arms".

    -scheherazade
     

  5. Loophole35

    Loophole35 Ancient Guru

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    That don't make much sense as why would they fire them for that knowing they would go public? I don't put much stock in something like this. If their bosses want to claim there are WMD's and there weren't they would not need someone to "find" proof.
     
  6. scheherazade

    scheherazade Ancient Guru

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    Because no one believes a fired employee (or even a regular ex-employee for that matter).
    "They're just saying it because they're mad at [ex-employer]".

    You need analysts to find the proof, so you have a complete audit trail.
    "Oversight".
    Remember, when you're working with the government, it's all about the 'artifacts' and 'artifact review'. You have to have artifacts that demonstrate the 'proper process' was followed.

    Reminds me of when Bill Murray would do weird crap to random strangers.
    He'd say [as he left] "No one will ever believe you".

    -scheherazade
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2013
  7. sykozis

    sykozis Ancient Guru

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    The US Constitution is written in proper English and does in fact say exactly that.

    Since schools in the US don't teach proper English and probably haven't for more than a century, most people don't understand proper English and thus the need to "interpret" the constitution as opposed to reading it and following it word for word. Also, given the extreme growth in population, following it as it's written would be a bit extreme. While a well organized and regulated militia is a good thing, an unorganized and unregulated militia can at times be much more effective in extreme scenarios.

    We can dig further into the constitution and see where rights are actually being trampled on....such as that part that supposedly guarantees "equal rights to all people"....yet our government doesn't extend "equal rights to all people". Hense laws prohibiting gay marriage. How about freedom of speech? One of the neighboring cities has speech censorship laws that prohibit the use of certain words in public. Freedom of expression.... The constitution gets trampled on daily.... The US Gov't fears an unorganized and unregulated militia because our military isn't properly trained to deal with them. They're trained to deal with an enemy they can identify. If it had been known at the time of writing, how the Gov't would progress, the 2nd amendment would be worded quite a bit different to ensure the people had an indefinite ability to defend itself against gov't.

    There were also EPA employees fired during the Bush administration for doing their jobs and reporting Coal burning power plants for failure to comply with Reagan's "Clear Air Act". Supposedly Bush was directly involved in the firings and received millions from the involved power companies, but I've never heard of any definitive evidence to prove it being discovered. Only statements from employees and former employees (that claimed to be fired for the same reasons). The involved power plants did receive extensions on their obligations to comply with the "Clean Air Act" though and the charges against them were dropped. Both of which required government involvement either from Congress, the President or both.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2013
  8. scheherazade

    scheherazade Ancient Guru

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    Is proper English not along the lines of :

    The first half is the preface/reasoning, the second half is the rule.

    Preface/Reasoning="A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,"

    Rule="the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"

    ...
    Given the obvious understanding that you can't form, hence can't have, a militia without having weapons.
    Particularly, contemporary weapons, to deal with contemporary threats.

    (eg. Revolutionary militia didn't revert to using older bow&arrow versus the contemporary British musket - as that would have been ineffective and a waste of effort. The expectation is that a militia would be useful, not an exercise in futility. It's very unlikely that the founders envisioned a militia as a suicide squad.)

    -scheherazade
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2013
  9. IcE

    IcE Don Snow Staff Member

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    So you're telling me you understand "proper" English and nobody else does? Is that a joke? The statement is vague, it's just how it is. As it stands, the current "state" of our civilian "militia" is well regulated indeed. You're not allowed to walk around with a rocket launcher.

    But really, the idea that there's only a debate because of mass ignorance is a bit ridiculous.
     
  10. Brasky

    Brasky Ancient Guru

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    Nevermind
     

  11. Loophole35

    Loophole35 Ancient Guru

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    Quick question how has this thread turned into a gun and war debate?
     
  12. Brasky

    Brasky Ancient Guru

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    it almost did, but i avoided throwing in my two cents.
    Damn health insurance!
    i love how they can't sell it across state lines as if it were a narcotic or something illegal, but i guess that's corruption and self interest at work.
     
  13. sykozis

    sykozis Ancient Guru

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    It's not vague at all. It's only vague to those that think everyone and their brother should own a gun.

    I do like how your superiority complex forces you to attack a statement I made, and do so without even the slightest understanding of what I even said. Scheherazade did explain why it should be interpreted as it is, as opposed to being enforced as it's written though....prior to following your ignorant lead....

    note: the quote is from post #144. I corrected the spelling of chicken.
     
  14. sykozis

    sykozis Ancient Guru

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    Go back to page 3.....or hell, pretty well any page. People throw around accusations about the current President and Government, as if it's the first to lie for it's own means. This generally results in it being pointed out that other Presidents and/or Governments have done the same for their own means. In this case, recent memory is of Bush and Clinton (at least for me since they were the last 2 Presidents prior to Obama and both lied for their own purposes and both were caught). We aren't discussing any wars though and apparently IcE doesn't understand my initial post about the second amendment and seems to think I'm attacking it, or it's interpretation.....not exactly sure which nor do I care...but that's where the talk of guns came from.....which was a response to Arctucus' post, directly above it.
     
  15. IcE

    IcE Don Snow Staff Member

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    I like how you're trying to be an armchair psychologist. The thing is, I don't even know what you're trying to argue. What set off my "complex" was that I've heard that argument from anti-gun activists so many times before, and it's always half assed. "You're not in a militia lolol".

    Now, I don't even know why I said it's a vague statement, because it really isn't. All I am bringing to the table (and that's even if you're arguing against gun rights) is that even though a militia is generally paramilitary in nature, the writing guarantees a citizen's right to form one with other citizens. As such, you are legally entitled to arms in case you feel you need to form one. Now, the "regulated" bit is what's vague. Scheherazade basically nailed it.

    Don't mind me, I'm barely coherent; too much work at the moment
     

  16. Brasky

    Brasky Ancient Guru

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    **** it
    if my option is carrying a gun and getting ridiculed on the internet by some holier than thou cocksucker or being put into a situation where i wish i had a weapon and not having it, i'll take take your ridicule every time. i only pray that if there ever is a time and place where it is necessary for me to defend my family or my friends that i will be able to do so.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2013
  17. Dude111

    Dude111 Member Guru

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    And it probably WONT BE AS GOOD A COVERAGE!!!! (If they dont wanna pay for something THEY WONT.... Leaving them the bill!!)

    Obamacare IS NO GOOD!!


    I understand him being upset!!
     
  18. deltatux

    deltatux Ancient Guru

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    All I'll say in this thread is that I love my Ontario Health Insurance Plan (OHIP), sure it doesn't cover everything, but it covers most of what I need :p

    deltatux
     
  19. Loophole35

    Loophole35 Ancient Guru

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    I have to give sykozis and Scheherazade credit where credit is due they did not attempt to use the musket argument so that was nice.
     
  20. Chillin

    Chillin Ancient Guru

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    Though the musket argument is very relevant. The musket was the great equalizer back when the constitution was formed. The Forefathers could have never have envisioned the massive gap between the lowest handguns and the top massive and heavy rounds in the modern age. Not to mention that the military equipment and training has moved beyond the simple soldier firearm into a completely different realm. The idea of a civilian "militia" challenging a standing military is a bad joke.

    That, and there is something completely wrong - and truly insane - about the gun culture in the U.S..

     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2013
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