HAGS flicker / 4090 / Plague Tale & Darktide

Discussion in 'Videocards - NVIDIA GeForce' started by thorium666, Dec 10, 2022.

  1. thorium666

    thorium666 Member

    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    2
    GPU:
    scheiss captchas
    Hello,

    I have a GeForce 4090, using newest drivers 527.56, but the issue is not limited to a specific driver, it is in all drivers I’ve used for the 4090.

    In 2 games, A Plague Tale Requiem and Warhammer Darktide, I’m observing extreme flicker when HAGS (Hardware Accelerated GPU Scheduling) is enabled in Windows 11 22H2 22621.900. The flicker looks in the Plague Requiem game like the pause/still image on an old VHS tape - like it is jumping between 2 frames. In Darktide game it is extreme flicker including also the setting and other menus outside of the game, in this game it not always flickering but it is often starting and it can be temporary removed e.g. by minimising/maximising the game. I've invested lot of time to find out that it is related with HAGS, the game support of both publishers was suggesting the typical Tier 1 toddler support activities (we don't know what the issue is, so reinstall everything because it is only your time you are using). I have reported the HAGS relation to both supports with no resolution yet. Question is, what can I do from my end not to wait for the support? I assume that it must be a combination of things located on my system what is triggering this flicker on these 2 games with HAGS. I've tried e.g. eliminating any overlay and monitoring tools like RTSS/Afterburner, in game Steam Overlay, etc. in Plague game the flicker is more intensive when DLSS is disabled. In both games the settings (e.g. minimise all details to GeForce 1060 level) have no impact on the flicker. The FT/FPS graphs not reacting on the flicker but the issue can be recorded with GF-Experience, so it is not just on the screen. Disabling HAGS is immediately eliminating these issues but it is also eliminating DLSS3/FG and probably also Direct Storage and others features. Any idea what could interfere with HAGS? I also want to add that it looks a bit like a decade ago a bad SLI AFR profile with 2 Graphic cards.
     
  2. Loster

    Loster Master Guru

    Messages:
    200
    Likes Received:
    22
    GPU:
    TUF 4090
    Hi,
    Yeah lately we are getting new features that are supossed to boost and optimise performance and stability. Like HAGS and 4G above and ReSizeable-BAR. Well in my Case i got the opposite results so i had to disable them. Windows will just do unexpected thing like not install a game fully because of reading/writing problems to the SSD, when ReSizeable-BAR ist activated. Or Windows will just freeze for some seconds and thats just during web browsing, when HAGS is enabled.

    Anyway...
    The HAGS "two frames jumping forth and backwards" problem in Plague Tale i could solve by setting the "max frame rate" to 60 in the Nvidia Control Panel. I did set it in the "Global Settings" so basicaly for all programs together, because my display is only 60Hz, so why should i have it set to unlimited anyway. Exept for Benchmarking.
    And to get rid of the tearings just enable Vsync in the Game itself.
     
    thorium666 likes this.
  3. thorium666

    thorium666 Member

    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    2
    GPU:
    scheiss captchas
    Hi

    thanks, glad im not alone with this issue. I can confirm, Plague Tale with driver limited 60 FPS (i have an EIZO screen, they have just 60 FPS) the deffect is gone! I wonder, i playing with VSYNC and 60 FPS, the driver limitation seems to change somethign else additionally.

    I will check if Darktide can be tackled similar

    Ok, Darktide is not accepting this workarround, it is still flickering.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2022
  4. Astyanax

    Astyanax Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    14,983
    Likes Received:
    6,139
    GPU:
    GTX 1080ti
    you have unstable memory.
     

  5. thorium666

    thorium666 Member

    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    2
    GPU:
    scheiss captchas
    The issuse is not fully resolved for Plague Tale, it still flicker, even it is less.
     
  6. Cave Waverider

    Cave Waverider Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    1,615
    Likes Received:
    426
    GPU:
    ASUS RTX 4090 TUF
    Very odd. I don't have any such problems on my RTX 4090 in Warhammer 40K Darktide or Plague Tale Requiem (both Gamepass versions in case that makes a difference) and HAGS enabled. I'm also on Windows 11 22H2 22621.900.
    I wonder what difference there could be between our systems that could be causing this flicker problem for you.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2022
  7. thorium666

    thorium666 Member

    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    2
    GPU:
    scheiss captchas
    I've written that combination of several things can cause this, else the internet would be full of reports about this issue.
    I can't say. It is a Ryzen 5950X (ASUS ROG Hero) System with 64GB RAM, 3x970pro 1TB SSDs,, 4090RTX, Soudblaster AE-9, Oculus Rift (the drivers i have also disabled to test if this could be an issue). I spend already too long on ths issue and game support was absolute useless...
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2022
  8. Island

    Island Master Guru

    Messages:
    415
    Likes Received:
    2
    GPU:
    2 EVGA 980Ti ACX 2.0
  9. Loster

    Loster Master Guru

    Messages:
    200
    Likes Received:
    22
    GPU:
    TUF 4090
    You are probably right. DDR5 7600. It seems the Motherboard us just not meant for it, even that the manual says so. Or a future BIOS might solve it.


    I am on Intels 13900K with an fresh installation of Windows 11. Just for comparsion.
     
  10. thorium666

    thorium666 Member

    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    2
    GPU:
    scheiss captchas
    I'm waiting for X3D 16 Core (7950X3D) before replatform as i don't want move to a P/E core architecture and intel discontinued the fine X CPUs.
    I will know latests in JAN/FEB if the X570 board/PCIe can be part of the issue. Also the BIOS is fresh, i have a tool which is reporting outdated SW and HW so everythign is actual. I dont want wait for JAN/FEB gettign this issue "maybe" resolved by replatforming. I will also not reinstall the OS, so it it is important to find the issue. I also don't want just repeat what the Tier 1 Jerks from the game support trying to tell me (issue must be on your end), i'm very sure that this is also sometign related with their games and their effort is key to get this finally resolved. I can use HAGS in new games, DLSS3 feature showcases, fresh code demos, etc without all these issues, many Vulcan/DX12 games, no issues like this. So very likely also a broken card card me excluded.
    Today i did another test and i removed the AE-9 Soundcard temporary to have it out of the PCIe subsystem, this has also not chaged anything. The flicker with HAGS is purely limited to these 2 games.
    I'm very open for ideas.
    There aren't many options which i've not tried in the driver or MS toddler control pannel. I checked the BIOS settings, there is nothing suspect.
     

  11. thorium666

    thorium666 Member

    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    2
    GPU:
    scheiss captchas
    I agree, sounds more like driver issue but finally you need to look at the artifacts, there are for exmaple very specific looking memory artifacts which you can get if you OC your memory, if they commign without OC then this may be a HW issue.

    For my issue, I just don't know enough about HAGS to understand the real impact of on/off HAGS in the whole PC ecosystem, what exactly is changign in low level and in execution of the software. Specific MS engineers, AMD or nVidia engineers knowing more about it and i think also good game developers which are havign a good system understanding and aren't just code artists/divas...:)
    We can here mostly only creating assumoptions and theories and tryng to dig to the root cause through elimination of factors.
    Additionally, both games running from different SSDs, so very unlikely a spoecific SSD can make some side effects when game is loading data. On other hand you can't really 100% exclude the SSD as all 3 SSDs are exactly the same model (Samsung 970pro 1tb) and HAGS change things at low level and propably also PCIe access.

    I'm open for ideas what else can interferer with the game graphics. I excluded already monitoring/overlay tools.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2022
  12. Daniel Morrow

    Daniel Morrow New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    GPU:
    4090
    Hey man I think I figured it out, It's some kind of conflict with the windows 11 HDR and AUTO HDR settings, I've been having the same issues since getting the 4090 and also imaging with windows 11 while playing darktide. I actually had issues even turning HDR off as it would start the whole desktop flickering in a similar way. I had to switch to nvidia color settings instead of OS in nvidia control panel apply, then go back to Win 11 settings and shut off HDR completely. Not sure if this is a driver problem or an OS problem.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2022
  13. Daniel Morrow

    Daniel Morrow New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    GPU:
    4090
    Nevermind, while it resolved some of the strange flickering I was having it did not resolve all of it.
     
  14. Cave Waverider

    Cave Waverider Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    1,615
    Likes Received:
    426
    GPU:
    ASUS RTX 4090 TUF
    What kind of flicker is it? Is it more of a brightness/contrast flicker or black screen flicker? Could it be that it has to do with your cable have you tried a different one? Have you tried a different port on your video card? Or maybe with some unsupported refresh rate being applied?

    Are you using VRR/Gsync and do you have it enabled for full screen only or windowed mode as well and do you have VRR enabled in the Windows Graphics settings? Does the issue occur with it on/off (could it be that you're falling out of VRR range and back in rapidly?)?

    Which monitor is it? Perhaps you could try using Nvidia Control Panel to manually set the monitor to various resolution/refresh rate combos on the list and see if the problem occurs elsewhere when using any of those.
     
  15. thorium666

    thorium666 Member

    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    2
    GPU:
    scheiss captchas
    Absolutly not, this is absolutly not a cable issue, 100%. It is not black and white flicker. I've described it a few time.I have no clue how to share a video easly, you know any easy viedeo share portal? I would be happy to share it with you. I mentioned that the issue can be recoreded (my 1st post "....graphs not reacting on the flicker but the issue can be recorded with GF-Experience"). I've spend so many time already on this issue, basic cable dicssion become very painfull for me, thank you for your understanding. If the issue would happen at the end of the playback chain - DP output to Monitor - i't couldn't be recorded internally via GF-Experience :). So the issue happens really in the graphics card or somewhere the nvidia app can grab the picture, framebuffer? What is temporary helping, this is e.g to press <alt>+<enter> to switch from fullscren to window mode and back to fullscreen. If playing in windowed mode the same trick would help, looks like the switch of the modes and not the modes itstelf have an effect. This can stop the issue for few min in the Plague Tale game. Somethign is then again triggering the flicker. It is difficult to say what is triggering the flicker. The flicker also happens only in the game, not outside. It must be triggered by someting in the game. It is not "breakign out" of the game and flicker the desktop.

    I have an EIZO EV2785 (DP), it is a conservative, no dedicated gamign screen. It has no VRR/GSync, it is a "simple" high picture quality 60Hz screen. The Issue happens just with these 2 games. I tried last few days many games and feature demos, i can't reproduce is somewhere else. I've tried also on a LG OLED65G1 (HDMI) screen via Denon X7200WA AVR, same issue, no difference. The Plague Game i playing with a gamepad primarly on the TV. We can also 100% eliminate the screens, the cables (high quality DP and a fibre HDMI for the AVR/TV). You see, it is a brain melting issue :). My thinking is going into the direction that some overlay tools like RTSS or Steam overlay could be the the culprits, but i eliminated these tools, removed/disbaled without any effect. I refunded the Plague game at Steam and bought it on GOG, no difference.
    No idea Cave Waverider..
     

  16. Daniel Morrow

    Daniel Morrow New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    GPU:
    4090
    I do not believe it is specific to this screen either, I have swapped between 120hz and 60hz mode, swapped between VRR with Gsync and turning off VRR on my TV from a base input level. I do have a video of what happens as I was able to recreate it in windows 11 when attempting to turn HDR on/off. I will also say the issue doesn't happen with an AMD card I tried swapping over to just the 4090 so I think possibly it's this current driver. When first updating to this driver the screen just froze and turned green, I had to swap over to the cpu gpu in order to uninstall it and reinstall, I don't know if this was an issue with windows 10 or not because I only had the 4090 for a few days before reimaging.

    yiou may be on to something with VRR however I've gotten some screen freezes just trying to change refresh rates, similar to attempting to change color modes. Funny thing is that the card is still a BEAST when it's not glitching out and temps are good, speeds are solid.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2022
  17. Daniel Morrow

    Daniel Morrow New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    GPU:
    4090
    So for me turning off Vsync and also disabling g-sync and VRR fixed the issue for me, try disabling vsync and see what happens. I just put a frame cap of 120 on the game and that seems to work ok, not as good as any combination of the other three but it's working. Question is Why is this happening on just the 4090 on my system, it seems to freak out when changing the screen refresh rate too.
     
  18. thorium666

    thorium666 Member

    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    2
    GPU:
    scheiss captchas
    I really can't paly with trearing, both games extremly tear without VSYNC.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2022
  19. thorium666

    thorium666 Member

    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    2
    GPU:
    scheiss captchas
    I can confrim, that vsync off is eleminating the flicker. The game is then lookign very bad with the typical tearing artifacts, i realyl don't like it, so it is not a solution for me. A least it probably leads into better understanding of the issue.
    VSYNC and HAGS are related with.
     
  20. -Tj-

    -Tj- Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    17,806
    Likes Received:
    2,366
    GPU:
    3080TI iChill Black
    // sorry for hijacking the thread a bit,


    Is hags a separate thing from rebar?

    Should i enable that too on my 3080ti now? I have rebar enabled atm..

    My old 980ti didnt support either rebar or hags, but now i totally forgot about hags.


    So hags should theoretically boost gpu utilisation further on top of rebar?


    Edit;
    https://babeltechreviews.com/hardware-accelerated-gpu-scheduling-performance/?amp

    Guess its a gimmick most of the time, no real difference
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2022

Share This Page