Getting NV Profile Inspector to have an effect on games that use Deferred Rendering (Destiny 2)?

Discussion in 'Videocards - NVIDIA GeForce Drivers Section' started by Phil Tuncap, Feb 28, 2020.

  1. Phil Tuncap

    Phil Tuncap Active Member

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    I'm having trouble getting Destiny 2 to show any tweaks i do in the Profile Inspector except for a handful of things...

    First of all I don't know why even on max settings this game, while it looks and runs great, doesn't look as it feels like it should cause there's lots of shimmering and jaggedness. I've tried playing around with options in the Inspector, this is my typical base setup for a game usually:

    [​IMG]

    Most games I play I'll switch on things shown like Max Pre-Rendered Frames, Trip Buff, Vert Sync, Power Manage Mode, Threaded Opt, and FRL Low Latency. Nvidia Quality Upscaling I haven't found a game I play yet where it's made a difference (that I've tried it on), and just recently I've turned the CUDA Force P2 State off because I read somewhere that that's really only needed for non-gaming stuff, so I turn it on when I do audio/video editing, altho I haven't paid attention to see if there's even a difference now that I leave it off. And the Limiter I have it on for Destiny 2 cause RTSS won't work with this game for whateevr reason. But any graphic options I've tried changing does nothing for me... nothing under Antialiasing works except Toggle FXAA Indicator and that only works when you turn FXAA on through here, not through the game. Oh, so does that mipmap thing or whatever where you strip down textures to the bare model (I'm guessing thats what it does anyways) by turning on REPLAY_MODE_ALL under Antialiasing - Trans Supersampling and changing the LOD Bias anywhere from 0x00000000 to 0x00000078. nothing under Texture Filtering seemed to work, Ambient OCC no workie, didn't notice a difference when I turned on the Quality upscaling while using Nivida DSR. I haven't tested out the Nvidia Sharpening things to see if they work, but this game doesn't support Freestyle which could really use some post-fx help.

    Anyways the only way I can try to fix the graphics is changing the resolution, but even that isn't that great. I read:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTechSupport/comments/8mqrb6/pc_jaggiesbad_antialiasing/

    that Destiny 2 uses a deferred rendering engine (which I confirmed upon finding
    http://advances.realtimerendering.com/s2013/Tatarchuk-Destiny-SIGGRAPH2013.pdf )
    , and says Anis Filtering should be forced on, which doesn't show a difference it seemed for me, and mentions that NVCP settings for AA are ignored by Destiny 2, so I was curious as to why. Looked up
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferred_shading
    , which mostly makes little sense to me sionce i dont do graphic design, but under the disadvantanges it says:

    "One more disadvantage is that, due to separating the lighting stage from the geometric stage, hardware anti-aliasing does not produce correct results anymore since interpolated subsamples would result in nonsensical position, normal, and tangent attributes. One of the usual techniques to overcome this limitation is using edge detection on the final image and then applying blur over the edges,[7] however recently more advanced post-process edge-smoothing techniques have been developed, such as MLAA[8][9] (used in Killzone 3 and Dragon Age II, among others), FXAA[10] (used in Crysis 2, FEAR 3, Duke Nukem Forever), SRAA,[11] DLAA[12] (used in Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II), and post MSAA (used in Crysis 2 as default anti-aliasing solution). Although it is not an edge-smoothing technique, temporal anti-aliasing (used in Halo Reach and Unreal Engine) can also help give edges a smoother appearance.[13] DirectX 10 introduced features allowing shaders to access individual samples in multisampled render targets (and depth buffers in version 10.1), giving users of this API access to hardware anti-aliasing in deferred shading. These features also allow them to correctly apply HDR luminance mapping to anti-aliased edges, where in earlier versions of the API any benefit of anti-aliasing may have been lost."

    So it sounds like thats why any AA changes are ignored in CP/Inspector, but it also says at the bottom that DX10 gave users access to hardware AA...if that's a way to do it, how is that done?

    Edit: Here's a video a made showing shimmering and jaggedness even on max settings

     
  2. Astyanax

    Astyanax Ancient Guru

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    You cannot force anything from the driver on destiny 2

    combat the shimmering with the resolution scaler.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
  3. -Tj-

    -Tj- Ancient Guru

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    Yes you can Anisotropic filtering, transparency AA, frames to render, fastsync,.




    To get rid of that shimmer try 150% downsample, that looks great here at 1080p display, not perfect, but great.

    Disable ingame AF and force in driver

    Use smaa, fxaa blurs too much incl. driver forced fxaa

    Why dont you use ingame fps limiter? works better then driver v3.


    I found nv dsr is not so good, ingame 150% looked better than dsr 2.25x (2880×1620)


    But moire shimmer on fences is still visible, transparency aa 4x eliminates it alittle but takes a big toll in heavy fights, 2xss is somewhat middle ground.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
  4. Astyanax

    Astyanax Ancient Guru

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    Anisotropic filtering only makes a difference if the game is already enabling it, otherwise it can't force anything into Destiny 2's protected process.

    TrAA - no, the game doesn't support MSAA period which is a requirement for the nvcp traa settings.

    The game doesn't respect flipqueue or fastsync settings.

    You don't, there is no FeatureLevel 10 for this game, it requires pure d3d11 hardware and can't even start on a gtx 2xx

    There are ways to get deferred rendereers to support msaa, but its not in any way forcible from the driver requiring the support to be woven into the graphics code intricately and only affecting particularly layers visible to the player.

    Shader Aliasing, which is the shimmering you see, is not maskable by MSAA.
     

  5. -Tj-

    -Tj- Ancient Guru

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    Bs trolling.


    Af works, rest also like fastsync

    I have over 550hrs of gameplay and I notice by now what works what not and if it has fps impacts.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2020
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  6. Phil Tuncap

    Phil Tuncap Active Member

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    I'm only using the limiter in the inspector just to use something in place of not being able to use RTSS. If you think in-game is better i'll try that. And now i'm torn between your response and Asty's counter response lol...but I've tried different options and nothing. But since you specified which ones, i'll try those and take a closer look to make sure. Although in the wiki link about deferred shading/rendering it said:

    "One key disadvantage of deferred rendering is the inability to handle transparency within the algorithm, although this problem is a generic one in Z-buffered scenes and it tends to be handled by delaying and sorting the rendering of transparent portions of the scene.[5] Depth peeling can be used to achieve order-independent transparency in deferred rendering, but at the cost of additional batches and g-buffer size."

    But you say you see a difference?
     
  7. -Tj-

    -Tj- Ancient Guru

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    It lessen transparency fences (floor) shimmer with transparency aa, see for your self.. force normal 4xss, not those special sparsegrid etc and go to that anex spawn @tower or go to saint14 hangar , this the best example.


    Af works, but disable ingame so it doesnt conflict and break it

    So does fastsync. When i enabled ingame vsync it made mouse lag. When i forced fastsync it removed that lag.

    Fps limiter ingame is more consistent then driver fps limiter
     
  8. Phil Tuncap

    Phil Tuncap Active Member

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    I always do triple buffering (never really looked at the details of that, just always was under the impression it was good ha..) and 1/2 refresh rate sync so i can have 144 on. Some games though don't like v-sync and/or frame limiters, i get worse fps/frametime than with them off. Forget offhand which games though..
     
  9. Astyanax

    Astyanax Ancient Guru

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    This is a pure case of Placebo, ala wishful thinking, also known as you wish it so, so its true.

    Transparency Antialiasing functions off the current MSAA setting (Driver, or In game) up to a limit of the current multiplier set, it cannot, does not, will never do anything on its own.

    You must have a MSAA 2x, 4x, 8x setting to use TrSSAA 2x, 4x, 8x. This has been how the driver has worked since Geforce 6 introduced TrAA.

    And it has never worked in any DX11 games that lack internal MSAA controls, as DXGI incorporates its own ability to perform antialiasing on alpha textures

    I know how the forced settings are blocked on injection protected processes, tyvm.


    Nvidia's triple buffering only affects OpenGL games, however its purely a third buffer and is always shown, its not like FastSync where it renders fast and discards old frames.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
  10. -Tj-

    -Tj- Ancient Guru

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    Then those fences magically have less shimmer with it on..and cause extra fps drops if enabled for nothing.. right..


    Asorax the Placebo dude go troll somewhere else.
     

  11. Phil Tuncap

    Phil Tuncap Active Member

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    Yeah I'm seeing no change. I almost thought I did but like Astyanax said, i tihnk it's cause my brain wanted to see a change ;P

    So if nothing can be forced from the driver, how come the AA_REPLAY_MODE_ALL + LOD Bias method works?

    Edit: I didn't notice a frame change for me, it was stiting around 71-72 both times
     
  12. Astyanax

    Astyanax Ancient Guru

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    The methods with a + in them do two things seperately from the one setting, like the hybrid xS modes where you get an MSAA component and a SSAA component in opengl you only see the SSAA component

    So you're seeing the Lod Bias causing a change but the AA itself is still at 0.

    TrAA doesn't affect OpenGL period, so it didn't do anything in Doom 3 visually, and the other games you listed had MSAA settings natively (Skyrim SE doesn't, so you won't get TrAA working on that).

    Never quantify that a setting does anything for visuals based on its impact on framerate, only image differencing with photoshop can confirm visual improvement or decay.

    With Deffered renderers they can apply to layers that don't even have any surfaces that end up shown, or even visually degrade the final output.

    https://docs.nvidia.com/gameworks/c.../d3d_samples/antialiaseddeferredrendering.htm
     
  13. Phil Tuncap

    Phil Tuncap Active Member

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    Oh I didn't mean it to be 1 thing like you'd see under the AA Setting. I just put the + there to mean that you need to modify both:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    That's running at native resolution but rendered down to 25% and all settings the lowest in order to get the most out of "trimming" the graphics or whatever it does
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
  14. -Tj-

    -Tj- Ancient Guru

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    Ok yeah Traa wasn't working, just had negative fps impact, like by one other game in the past, idk the name atm.


    Anyway.. don't tweak lod it will cause more of that said shimmer on them floor fences.

    The image is sharp enough if you

    -disable ingame af and froce driver af in profile

    -set ingame to smaa

    -set native reso and then use downsampling %.. try 150% for starters.

    Also make sure you dont have your cfg set to read only.



    i will retest 8xss traa and no traa and post screens. And fps differences, using ingame fps monitor.

    edit:
    It has 3-5fps impact (by lots of explosions even more), but no visual difference, it was just downsampling 150% making it less obvious. I remember one game in the past that had similar issue, it applied Traa but didnt work, just fps impact.


    Traa -8xSS
    [​IMG] [​IMG]


    [​IMG]


    No Traa
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    Ps normal ss does work in opengl Doom3 too, but it blurs everything, especially these floor fence tiles.


    Im just bothered by this moire filtering
    https://computergraphics.stackexchange.com/questions/1592/moires-patterns-despite-using-mipmaps
    AA not so much.. 150% is acceptable and not have too big of a fps drop.. 140% already looks worse, but has 8-10fps boost lol
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
  15. Astyanax

    Astyanax Ancient Guru

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    The 16x method that Doom 3 exposes natively (and only works on Geforce FX+) is actually the hybrid 16xS method, 2x2SSAA+4xMSAA. Thats why it has a visible affect on grates and shader aliasing, so yeah SS is really nice in Doom 3 with cards these days :D

    are you using 1 980ti or two? the GTX 1080 is just slightly faster in most cases than the ti and I can't really consider the framerate playable at 1440p 150% scale
     

  16. MrBonk

    MrBonk Ancient Guru

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    Doom 3 Vanilla you can force SGSSAA without any blurring issues. (Barring the driver bug that causes a glitch on things like grates). It's once you start introducing mods with shaders that problems happen.
    https://u.cubeupload.com/MrBonk/shot00385.jpg You can work around those issues once you introduce shaders though.

    Doom 3 BFG's 16x mode is I think the same as the 16x mode as the original game but is a little on the soft side. Looks great to me though. If you add downsampling on top you can easily gain back sharpness.

    There really isn't any good choices in modern games. TAA is often pretty bad looking without any kind of supersampling on top of it or sharpening. (or both). But aside from Post Process AA like SMAA/FXAA. That's really the only other choice you get aside from a bog standard resolution scale choice. (OGSSAA) which isn't adequate either by itself. Neither would MSAA be.
    I can only imagine the huge performance loss that would happen if Nvidia had listened when we asked them years ago to add the support to DX11 like exists for DX9 to force AA. (Which deferred wouldn't be an issue for. Because there are tons of DX9 games that use deferred rendering for that Nvidia's DX9 AA support can hack in MSAA or SGSSAA with varying results)
    MSAA+TAA can be a decent combination depending on the game, recently I played Zero Time Dilemma. Which is a DX11 game that supports MSAA and TAA. (Together or alone). It's really only together that it results in it looking it's best. (+ a sharpening pass). You can further enhance this with SGSSAA to clean up what MSAA+TAA misses.
    https://imgsli.com/MTI2NTM/0/1 (Do be aware TAA looks way better in this still shot than it does in motion. And only mild sharpening is used. You could sharpen it further if you wanted.)
     
  17. Astyanax

    Astyanax Ancient Guru

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    TJ was being explicit about NOT using the sparsegrid method, I kept in that context
     
  18. -Tj-

    -Tj- Ancient Guru

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    1080p 150% and hdao, dof high, shadows high, rest max and i usually get 70-120fps, lowest worst case mid 50s.

    With 1 980ti@1.4ghz

    Speaking of that floor shimmer, this new image sharpen makes very thin lines (and pretty much fixes it), as if it enhanced lod further, but ignore film grain ruins it and makes everything too sharp and hazey.. when i tested it i just couldn't find the middle ground and so i disabled it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2020
  19. Phil Tuncap

    Phil Tuncap Active Member

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    Yeah I just tested out the sharpen thing in the regular NVCP, is that considered post-processing effect or whatever?
     
  20. Phil Tuncap

    Phil Tuncap Active Member

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    I like Freestyle a lot more, I've only tested it on 1 game so far, Spacelords. Be nice if more games supported it



     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2020

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