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Game of Thrones

Discussion in 'The Guru's Pub' started by Mkilbride, Apr 20, 2011.

  1. rflair

    rflair Don Commisso Staff Member

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    From the last episode of season 7 to now all I could think was how I could have done it better.
    I am going to watch it till the end, even though honestly I don't see the point.
    Rating for the last three episodes is GARBAGE/10.
     
  2. The Laughing Ma

    The Laughing Ma Ancient Guru

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    Except it is. Yes the shorter than usual season has made a progressive decay a little more difficult to show and they have had to rush the progress but the small sub plot running, is that it doesn't matter what she has done. People will know that she isn't meant to be the Queen that John is the rightful King. Tie this to the fact that the last few episodes have highlighted more than once that she isn't especially loved and that since the start of season 8 she has had a sneaking suspicion that those around her have been trying to under mind her, especially the whole thing with the North and Sansa which came to a head in this episode when it turned out that yup Sansa had done exactly whats she didn't want her to do and tell someone that she wasn't the rightful air. Add on that almost the entire shows arc from S2 onwards has been her being told how she is the rightful air, how she will be a great ruler, then being a loved ruler in a foreign land, it's not hard to see why she would be driven down a different route.

    Is she mad.....no. No I don't think she is maybe a bit near the edge but licking spoons whule laughing at yourself in the mirror bonkers? no, that is what everyone seems to be assuming.

    Her statement to John was very very clear she has come here, she has helped to win a war that should have been lost at great sacrifice to herself and the result is that not only do the people not love her but that those closest to her have been actively trying to undermind her position. She tells him that she knows she cannot win the people by love so she uses the only option she has left fear and how do you create fear. You go in to the capitial and f*ck the place up.

    A longer season would have helped to build on this a bit better given the progress a little more meat and allowed us to see a little more of those nearest her chipping away at the foundations but as it is they had to rush stuff to give us the wow moments.

    [​IMG]

    and this episode did have a lot of these wow moments.
     
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  3. Repo Man

    Repo Man Ancient Guru

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    I think most things have already been said by others all over the internet and even in this thread much better than I could ever say but with that in mind I must say I tend to agree with almost all of the criticism this season has received thus far. Have I enjoyed watching these episodes ? Yes! Some of them have had some really great scenes but then the messy writing comes in and wrecks it all. My biggest annoyance is that I was really looking forward to buying the entire series box set on Blu-Ray and re-watching it but the way things have been this season, it is now eating away from the enjoyment of the series as a whole as I'll know the sloppy last season will lurk in the distance and I'm kinda reaching the point where I just wan't to put the whole thing behind me and move on.

    I will reserve my final judgement for after I've seen the last episode but its not looking to hot atm. :(
     
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  4. TaskMaster

    TaskMaster Master Guru

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    I wont let one average season destroy my love for the show. It has been a heck of a ride.

    However I wish I could see the look on the faces of all those 20yr old parents out there who named their daughter "Khaleesi" and then saw her go full rage on the city.

    They are always like "Yaaaaaaasss the fire queen!, Yaaaaassss guuuurrrrrrl".

    Anyways, she lived up to the motto "Fire & blood", and though the writing has not been on par to what it has been in the passed. I do get some of the decisions that some people on here are facepalming about and would not outright say D&D are so so etc (each to their own though).

    Wish they had more episodes to expand the writing and story. In fact, I just wish GRR Martin was more involved and actually finished the book on time. Ah well, still not unsatisfied.
     

  5. Netherwind

    Netherwind Ancient Guru

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    I can't wait for this season to be over. The GoT magic and mystique is almost completely gone and the episodes are not especially enjoyable. Sure, they've made some cool shots and grand battles but that's all.
     
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  6. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Ancient Guru

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    Breaking the Wheel goes only so far...

    Daenerys did spoke with Aegon about ruling people through love or fear. As Aegon could not give her love and therefore she could not rule through him being her husband who has love of people, she was left with having people's fear.

    As she was sitting there on dragon she was not looking at Cersei in Red Keep. She was looking at Red Keep itself. (Thinking about things which none of us knows... at least till next episode.)
    Probably reminded of Aegon "1st of his name".
    And Red Keep as an symbol.
    = = = =

    Her actions may have as well result in "Breaking the wheel". And her achieving her goal at her own expense as she hinted before too.
     
  7. The Laughing Ma

    The Laughing Ma Ancient Guru

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    I was thinking about that, how exactly was she going to break this wheel if all she was going to do was rock up to King's Landing kill the current ruler and take the Iron Throne. In what regard would that have made her any different than any other ruler that came before her? How would that have been breaking the wheel?
     
  8. Kaleid

    Kaleid Ancient Guru

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    She is mad, they made her mad despite saying earlier on that she wasn't, but that she had some Targaryan cruelty.
    Jon has said he doesn't want it, so he is not meant for it. Now the "brains" in the show has this idea that they will put in power one who doesn't want it. Well, they already had that with King Robert, didn't work extremely well did it. Whilst he had some ideas and knew somewhat was going on he never saw what the likes of Varys and LF were doing behind his back.

    Her not being loved is crap writing, she saved their asses and all of them would be wights without her. Even in the north this should be welcomed, and Sansa sort of reading that she is a bad person or something doesn't make her look smart just cynical and distrustful before anything actually happens.
    Even Dany's behavior in the afterparty makes really no sense, as if she doesn't know that she can build it up again, as said, her story is not difficult to sell, but we are in alternative universe where the show runners seem more interested in doing 3 Star Wars movies and it seems they are already practicing by making the story ridiculous, more meme-type, fan-service, twisted internal logic, breaking of rules etc.

    What great sacrifice? Yes, she has lost soldiers etc, but she went in into King's Landing in god mode with one mere dragon. Losing Missandei, Jorah etc...it's not that big of a losses for someone who will easily attract others to follow her. Her act of killing utterly innocent people is entirely inconsistent with her story arc and previously demonstrated moral code. I am to believe that they felt wrongly about her despite that she was for instance much more rational than Jon during the battle at winterfell. Here he is, the hero who can't even seem to use any magic weapon on a dragon, how hard can it be to kill him instead Jon is once again saved in the last minute by someone when he just stands there and screams like a bloody moron. It's a bit like the polarbear again, two fight it and the rest are missing in action.

    Even the mad king did not lose his marbles during a fight, he gradually lost it as he was having power. And that would have made whole lot more sense, as perhaps something that starts to happen at a certain age, a form of dementia which the person does not notice is known to in real life lead to increase in crimes. This I could buy, now she turned into a surprise boss battle at the end after the Night King was just a mere quicktime event.



    The sad part is that GRRM has said that his ending will not be completely different from this one. I can't post the spoiler from the last episode yet so I'll wait with that.

    The cinematography was great and Tyrion's farewell to his brother and sister were great too, but that's about it.
    I like the idea of Arya getting PTSD but I guess she will be a-ok in the last episode for no good reason.

    Agreed. For instance Varys has basically been missing in action for ages now, so when he died I didn't really feel anything. Cersei was extremely underused in the whole season, it seemed like all she had was weapons against the dragons but of course Euron took one down easily with an aimbot although GRRM has said that a fully grown dragon is pretty much indestructible.
     
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  9. The Laughing Ma

    The Laughing Ma Ancient Guru

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    Is she? She has always been shown as an impulsive person capable of making poorly thought out and rash decisions, especially when it comes to dealing with individuals that she sees as being counter or against her wishes or when it's against antagonists who are affecting people she identifies with. She is only brought under control by the actions of others and now she is in a situation where those she trusted and used to be a measure against her impulsive behaviours have been 'plotting' behind her.

    Lets remember that she wanted to rock up to King's Landing and go toe to toe from the word go and that it was only because her advisors demonstrated what the threat in the North was that she opted to help and even that took a fair amount of convincing.

    How so? since she arrived in the North everywhere she looks she is being shown that the North sees John as a King, now these guys only see him as King in the North they don;t even know that he is the legit ruler of the seven Kingdoms. She is barely acknowledge during the 'party' while John is being treated as one of the people. She can clearly see that he would be a better more accepted ruler of the people than she ever would be.

    This SW x 3 movie thing though is kinda stupid that was only announced a few days ago while writing for GOT was done and dusted last year so I am not sure why people keep throwing that as a reason for the shows flaws?

    What has she called her Dragons from the day she first got them? Her children, the armies she had, the friends she had, the bonds, the lovers, the people all of those are small compared to losing not one but two of your children, then pile on top of that the fact that those she considered closest to her are secretly plotting behind her back to install someone else in the place she believes to be hers, it's not hard to see why she went off the deep end.

    It's not perfect, not even close, the shorter season and trying to pack way too many developments in such a small amount of time has badly affected the plotting and pacing but it certainly isn't out of left field as so many people seem to be making out. The woman prior to Kings Landing has the single biggest body count of any other person in ASOIAF. She has always been irrational in her decision making especially when it has been against those that slight or have slighted those that she identifies with. Her advisors have been the ones that have kept her in check for large parts of the entire story arc and now they are gone, worse still they are now the guys working against her.

    Dany's story arc doesn't surprise or dis-appoint me. I am still laughing at the fact that the Night King just turned out to be nothing.

    Perhaps but at least they didn't do something stupid like oh I dunno having some magic horn that allows you to control the dragons.

    The thing is people keep complaining about how the story is going but what exactly was it people were expecting? A happy ending? Everyone dying at the hands of the Night King? Battles that are fought within the confines of real world mechanics that end up with what result? What result is it that people want?

    Or are people not bothered about the direction that show is going they just wanted a more developed story getting there? and are these the same people that complained in the early seasons how nothing seemed to happen for episodes? The folk that complain now about teleporting characters and armies but complained three or four seasons ago about how it took five episodes for someone to get somewhere?
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2019
  10. Solfaur

    Solfaur Ancient Guru

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    As someone who watched all episodes from season 1-5 like 4-5 times, less in 6 & 7 (still watched Spoils of War and the Wall collapse 20+times), I agree. After season 8 is over, I'll have 0 incentive to watch it again. I will never be able to get past the fact that everything is pointless, all the character buildup, all the complex redemption arcs, the lore, symbolism, the "crumbles" etc. etc. EVERYTHING IS DISCARDED in 8 just for... *drum roll* - SUBVERSIOOOOON! So stupid, so rushed, and stupid again...

    @ Kaleid even if GRR Martin will have ALL all the story arcs end just like they did in season 8 (and I doubt it), you can be assured that the road to all these conclusion will make excellent sense, ramification of events unfolded in thousands of pages will be explained in detail, and not just farted in our face with the speed of light, like in the show.

    This again reminds me of HBO and how the hell they allowed this? They should have fired these two idiots after season 7. In the 2 years that they had, they could have done some restructuring, hire decent writers, push for 10 episodes at least, maybe even another season or a movie for the finale. Borderline is they could have avoided this mess, IF they cared for the fans, but they didn't. As bad as the season is, it still made a ton of quick money from the housewives and other "casual" audience. But they WILL lose out long-term from the angry hardcore nerds that won't buy the blu-rays and other overpriced nerdy merchandise. Not to mention they will likely cancel almost all if not all planed "prequels".
     
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  11. TaskMaster

    TaskMaster Master Guru

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    apparently they wanted 2 e
    My wife and I are going to watch season 1 to 7 next week and pretend that season 7 was the end. EVEN with knowing how season 8 ends, I will always love the show for what it was at its peak.
     
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  12. Solfaur

    Solfaur Ancient Guru

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    Yeah, I get that. If we forget that 8 was ever made and that the show ended with the Night King bringing down the Wall and killing everybody in Westeros, the yes. :rolleyes:
     
  13. Dragam1337

    Dragam1337 Maha Guru

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    I still prefer to pretend it ended with season 6, with dany sailing home.
     
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  14. Kaleid

    Kaleid Ancient Guru

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    I'm not going to spend my time arguing all of this again when it is clear that she is not an impulsive person and her motivations for altruistic causes are her own. The show demonstrates this, the books demonstrate this. She is pretty much always asking for guidance on what to do just like Stannis, almost no decisions are made out of the blue.

    Even if she had gone to King's Landing directly it does not have to turn into a massacre, she could target the armies with her dragons and that would be it.



    No, we have known for a long time that they will do SW movies. Long time ago. Google back.

    Yes, she has called them children, but she does not weep for any of them even close as much as she did for Khal and Jorah. Her reaction to Missandei is to take action and avange her so she is sort of more stoic like Stannis but will have to deal with the emotions later. She is in other words adapting and even becoming stronger. As the show creators say, she is among the absolute strongest people there is, and a strong person does not go from yes, I finally won to let's lose all the marbles.

    Her advisors have been giving her bad advice for seasons now and as Missandei pointed out, if she does what she wants then she gets the right results.

    No, I don't care for a happy ending, I don't even care if all of Westeros goes down to the Night King, I just want things to be plausible. In the earlier video that I posted we see for instance that Jaime's story arc means nothing, as he has said he killed the mad king to save people, he also went to Winterfell because he understood that this battle meant something. Now, Tyrion returns the favor and has him released and he tells him that he never really cared for teh peoople in the first place.
    Euron, a psychopath worse than Joffrey, does not notice that Tyrion mentions about Cersei being pregnant.
    Dany, just forgets about Euron and his magical fleet that is always at the right place for the story to progress somehow, just like he ends up at the same damn beach as Jaime.. insert wtf.gif into this too.
    If say Westeros falls completely, then it would be up to the people of Essos to do something about it, this could give a perfect sequel if there are some competent writers creating this stuff.

    Even most of those who become mad has some sense of self-preservation, and Dany somehow doesn't demonstrate any of that. This is basically the sin of telling a story be telling about it but not showing. This seasons is filled with that kind of stuff.

    It's not as many people as me who point out that once Arya's capabilities are demonstrated and known by others that the leaders of team Dany/Jon etc should have sent her on a mission before any military action is taken. They are so bloody braindead that I don't care if any of them win at this point.

    If we look at the mess of this season we have three main villians in a very, very short period of time
    Nightking. The true war and death itself, really we have had to fear him since season 1.
    Then we hav Cersei, a mere human out of flesh and blood, again, with faceswapping this could be easily dealt with by Arya. We could add a danger to it by making the mountain sort of sense that something is wrong but ultimately she is just a human. But surprise, the superb actress that she is is not even used that much in this season. How did she prepare for the battle, what goes on in her mind. Did she regret sending Bronn to kill her brothers and wishes for Jaime to return? Does she feel that the end is near. With such an actress so much could be created here. But alas, she mostly just stands there looking at King's Landing.
    Now we have Dany. Who went loco 180 in no time. Another mad dog that will be put down, as we know happens in the show. I have absolutely no reason to believe that she would survive even without the leaks.

    It's just that piss-poor.

    We've previously had this type of poor writing too. How did Bronn and Jaime escape exactly? No search parties after them? There's almost no brain inside any of their heads for them to go mad even.


    Yes, I know this is the book but this digs deeper into her mind. There are two books that can actually demonstrate that she is going loco, well.. as long as he finishes the last one. He can if he stays focused.



    I'm glad the show is almost over... but I will comment on the final episode too because I know it is messed up already from the leaks.
     
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  15. The Laughing Ma

    The Laughing Ma Ancient Guru

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    Proceeds to argue....

    Look to put things in simple terms I don;t care enough to be annoyed. I am not shocked by her going off the deep end as far as I am concerned their has been enough foreshadowing within the show to give a decent enough reason as to why she did what she did is it dis appointing that they couldn't have spent more time developing the sub plot of those working to under mine her, give her fall from grace a little more meat and back story. Yes 100% it is, but the end result isn't shocking or surprising it's just the journey there has been too short and mostly filled with the kids being sick in the back of the car.

    Doesn't matter what side of the debate you stand on though folk will be 'debating' the justifications of her actions long after the show has ended and even longer once, maybe IF the books ever come out.
     

  16. Kaleid

    Kaleid Ancient Guru

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    Yes, well, I obviously meant that I'm going to cut down on talking about this, the show has been quite a mess when it comes the writing for some time now. I've provided several different sources which talk for a longer period of time on why Dany's "evolution" makes no sense and if that is not something people buy then so be it. As stated before I hope the books will be finished and that he puts the effort into the story that they are worth.
    I don't mind if she goes crazy either, but it has to be built so that it makes at least one iota of sense which it doesn't do on the show.
    The problem is not just Dany really, the smart ones are quite dumb, Arya is not used to kill Cersei etc, daggers in her back although they would all have lost without her, Varys working to make her the queen of King's Landing then pretty damn late notices that oh jolly, guess I didn't see that one coming before etc, Jaime's arc is wasted (don't mind returning to Cersei though, the heart wants what it wants) etc etc..

    I'll return to this topic once the last episode has aired... I already have things to say based on leak but spoilers can wait. That can't be fixed with more content either, it'll feel hollow and after the show ends we will get those making of pieces that are so normal in which I have to hear various justifications why consistency is out the damn window.
     
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  17. Darkest

    Darkest Ancient Guru

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  18. Kaleid

    Kaleid Ancient Guru

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    Yeah, it won't happen of course.
    At this point I think it would have been better of the Night King to win the whole thing, let Westeros fall and let the people across the narrow sea think about how to stop the "plague" of the long night. The people of Westeros sort of deserve to lose, why did the children of the forest invent create the Night King to begin with? Mankind is a menace and it still keeps on doing the same stuff, backstabbing, killing, torture, wars, cruelty etc.. so much crap that they essentially forget what happened the day before or how to apply decent military tactics.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    What btw happened to the wight children? They were bloody terrific at Hardhome, one of the more shocking scenes I've seen and it's not even a horror movie or series. Hodor could of course have come back too and the female-leader at Hardhome as well who did a very convincing job of being a real person in that world with history, motivations and all.

    Absolutely worth seeing:
     
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  19. Yxskaft

    Yxskaft Maha Guru

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    Daenerys becoming mad was rushed, but to be fair, almost everything has been rushed since season 7. I think season 8 is alot better than season 7 was, the Beyond the Wall episode alone would make it so.

    But it feels people only want to remember Daenerys' better deeds. Daenerys didn't show any hesitation when Drogo promised to destroy their cities, make their children into slaves and rape their women. Daenerys stole the Unsullied by making a trade agreement with the Slave owners, but then broke it. From the start, Daenerys has been prepared to do anything to reach her goals.
     
  20. Kaleid

    Kaleid Ancient Guru

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    Yes, but she ended up reforming them... otherwise I think it is not so smart to look at everything with modern eyes, Arya killed lots of innocent people too but there is really no criticism towards her actions. It is medival times before international laws and all that. Even if there is some sort of agreement to not kill those who have been invited Tywin certainly broke that too. We of course have the killing of parents and former allies too just to get ahead personally. So Dany is not unique in this world. Just to add more than my opinion, here is a conversation between a journalist and a historian who specializes in what happens when a conquering army takes over:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/enterta...ory-explains-game-thrones-latest-twist/589357
     
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