Enhanced Sync is overrated

Discussion in 'Videocards - AMD Radeon Drivers Section' started by Australis, Dec 19, 2017.

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What describes your first-hand experience with Enhanced Sync?

  1. Positive

    63.2%
  2. Neutral

    15.8%
  3. Negative

    21.1%
  1. S3r1ous

    S3r1ous Member Guru

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    i go thru somekind of process similar to this for every game... one by one checking how the tearing is, if its still bad then moving to the next one

    Make sure its borderless windowed FIRST then
    Off, unless application specifies/Ingame Vsync is OFF


    Freesync ONLY
    Enhanced Vsync ONLY
    Enhanced Vsync + Freesync
    Always On Vsync + Freesync
    Off, unless application specifies + Ingame Vsync ON + Freesync
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
  2. MaCk0y

    MaCk0y Maha Guru

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    So does Enhanced Vsync override in-game Vsync ?
     
  3. Alessio1989

    Alessio1989 Ancient Guru

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    They will conflict for sure. I guess in-game/application present-sync will win, otherwise tons of things could get broken. People should try to force driver settings only for those things that are not available nor enable on the game/application side
     
  4. Octopuss

    Octopuss Master Guru

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    Why would you use enhanced sync when you have freesync monitor_
     

  5. ObscureangelPT

    ObscureangelPT Master Guru

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    After the last post that I've made.
    I've noticed some problems with enhanced sync and the FRTC while doing my experience with the Enhanced sync + FPS Lock.

    All DX9 games seems to experience weird juddering on the frametimes every few seconds.
    I've noticed that on CS:GO and Rocket League, so locking the game to the HZ of the monitor, either with RTSS or FRTC and using Enhanced sync is not working smoothly for me.

    Altough in DX11 games it seems to work quite well.
    As for the FRTC still does worse job than the RTSS, but in DX11 seems to work far better than DX9 games.
    So far that's the only feedback I can give, and this was based on the 17.12.1, I sadly don't have too much time to play and mess around with this stuff, but I will continually bring some extra feedback to the table based on my experience with locked framerates mixed with Enhanced Sync.

    Cheers
     
  6. Chastity

    Chastity Ancient Guru

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    Because, you can :D

    Tho I do understand this. I prefer to control my temps too, so I use Chill and set it to keep things with my FreeSync range. Been working very well.
     
  7. Rambo

    Rambo Master Guru

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    It works beside FreeSync range so it's supplemental, especially in MOBA and other games which don't like fps_cap.
     
  8. Australis

    Australis Master Guru

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    To my understanding, Borderless Windowed Mode is bound by Windows 10 desktop V-Sync, which cannot be switched off.

    Old games can hit over 144 FPS, north of my 144 Hz FreeSync range. Enhanced Sync promises no tearing (versus V-Sync Off) and negligible input latency (versus V-Sync On).

    VSR might give those extra frames a good run for their money. Unfortunately, only 4K 60 Hz is selectable via my Display Port Cable...
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2017
  9. Chastity

    Chastity Ancient Guru

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    Correct. Borderless Windowed Fullscreen is VSync + Triple Buffered, despite in-game settings.
     
  10. Agonist

    Agonist Ancient Guru

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    This is exactly what I am doing myself. My fury stays around 53c. 60-80fps in ichill. I have 30-80 freesync range. Keeps power consumption and volts way down on my fury.
     

  11. Benik3

    Benik3 Master Guru

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    With FRTC you mean Frame Rate Target Control in Radeon Settings?
    For me this settings doesn't work in any game :/
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
  12. Australis

    Australis Master Guru

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    You got the acronym right.

    You shouldn't bother to use any framerate limiter as they get you screen tearing and additional input latency. Enhanced Sync is the clear winner here.
     
  13. yasamoka

    yasamoka Ancient Guru

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    That's not true. Optimal experience with G-Sync / FreeSync is V-Sync on (in driver) + FPS cap (in-game / RTSS) ~3FPS below refresh rate (e.g. 141FPS @ 144Hz).

    No stutter (due to G-Sync / FreeSync), no tearing (due to frametime compensation from V-Sync on), and no V-Sync input latency (due to never actually hitting the refresh rate and activating V-Sync).

    Framerate limiters (in-game / RTSS) have been shown to actually reduce input latency. Nvidia Inspector framerate limiter adds latency. Not sure about AMD's FRTC.

    Enhanced Sync, for the most part (when your framerate is not very high), delivers a stuttery experience (due to mismatch between framerate and refresh rate) with lower input latency than V-Sync on but higher input latency than FreeSync mode with framerate just below the refresh rate.

    We shouldn't keep repeating this over and over again. Some BlurBusters articles:
    https://www.blurbusters.com/gsync/gsync101-input-lag-tests-and-settings/3/
    https://www.blurbusters.com/gsync/gsync101-input-lag-tests-and-settings/14/

    Same behavior between G-Sync and FreeSync.
     
  14. Australis

    Australis Master Guru

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    You sound well informed.

    Yet, this:

    https://community.amd.com/thread/213346

    [​IMG]

    All the contradictory information boggles my mind.
     
  15. Australis

    Australis Master Guru

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  16. Benik3

    Benik3 Master Guru

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    Well problem with Vsync is, that if you don't have stable FPS over your refresh rate, it will drop to half (I had this problem e.g. in Half Life 2. With Vsync I had in most cases 60FPS, but when it dropped even to 58, Vsync CAPed it to 30FPS...).
    So FreeSync + Enhanced Sync sounds better for me. Also I don't know, why Vsync ON with FreeSync remove the input lag. In my opinion it's still the same as with No FS display. The problem is in the Vsync (and drooping "unwanted" frames etc.) not in the freesync itself...

    BTW for me not always FreeSync solves stuttering with FPS over refresh rate. That's why I'm using FPS limit (in RTSS). Also it helps to have cooler GPU and less noise...
    On the other hand when there is some huge FPS drop, it's harder to compensate it then without limiter (e.g. Witcher 2, but this engine is bad itself...)
     
  17. yasamoka

    yasamoka Ancient Guru

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    What in this contradicts what I have said? It's pretty much exactly what I said, with the exception that "FreeSync removes every single negative aspect of V-Sync" that needs to be qualified - you need a framerate cap in order to prevent hitting FPS = refresh rate and bringing back most of the ugly input latency of V-Sync on.

    Again, something that goes with what we were all saying here: G-Sync / FreeSync + V-Sync on (+ FPS cap to remove V-Sync input latency). Enhanced Sync matters only for very high framerates (possibly) and for static refresh rate monitors.

    That's not how V-Sync behaves with G-Sync / FreeSync is enabled ... that beats the whole point of G-Sync / FreeSync. The only reason double buffer V-Sync knocks your framerate down to 30FPS when a frame is not complete within 16.67ms is because the refresh interval was missed and the next one in sight is 16.67ms away, making your actual frametime 33.33ms, thus your framerate 30FPS. Miss a second refresh interval and now you're at 20FPS, a third and now you're at 15FPS, etc...

    With G-Sync / FreeSync, there is no such thing as "missing" a refresh - the monitor waits until the frame is complete before it refreshes. The frame took 16.9ms? No problem, the monitor waits until it is complete then scans it out - your effective framerate is now 59.17FPS.

    Let's repeat - the only two effects of enabling V-Sync when using G-Sync / FreeSync are:

    1) controlling the behavior of G-Sync / FreeSync when FPS hits refresh rate (on = V-Sync like, off = V-Sync off)
    2) enabling frametime compensation for frames that end up finishing before the minimum refresh interval - in other words, a frame that finishes with an instantaneous framerate that is higher than the monitor's maximum refresh rate, at which point the frame is either delayed slightly to align with the scanout or it tears.

    The first behavior is undesirable despite achieving the highest framerate possible that can be shown as-is on the monitor, since the added input latency is very close to the input latency of V-Sync on (without G-Sync / FreeSync - from the BlurBusters articles). A framerate cap slightly below the refresh rate would negligibly reduce the framerate, raising frametime latency negligibly, but would eliminate the added input latency that is close to the input latency of V-Sync on. Effectively, you would have the input latency of V-Sync off (higher due to having to align with the scanout, lower due to frame caps reducing latency over uncapped) with the smoothness of V-Sync on (albeit with a slightly lower framerate, e.g. 141FPS vs. 144FPS), and, of course, while keeping G-Sync / FreeSync goodness active - whenever your framerate even fluctuates slightly, or dips, you still see the frames as-is, without any tearing and stutter from V-Sync off / sync stutter from V-Sync on / input latency from V-Sync on (regardless of whether double buffering or triple buffering is used).

    Again, golden solution for G-Sync / FreeSync: V-Sync on (preferably driver), framerate cap (preferably game, then RTSS - nothing else) 3FPS below refresh rate.

    Exception to the rule: Game that does not act well with framerate cap and runs at absurdly high framerates (or has to run at such for optimal gameplay). Then, and only then, enable Fast Sync / Enhanced Sync instead of V-Sync - there are no benefits to G-Sync and FreeSync that can be had in this case. Good luck finding these exceptions, though.
     
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  18. Australis

    Australis Master Guru

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    If only NVIDIA or AMD can validate any of these theories. Until then, there isn't a clear-cut or generally accepted answer.:confused:

    240Hz G-Sync / FreeSync users need not pick their poison. The insane G-Sync / FreeSync range has them covered. I feel like a filthy 144Hz FreeSync peasant now. :eek:
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
  19. Octopuss

    Octopuss Master Guru

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    Damn, I always play in borderless mode if the game supports it.
    Does that mean I shouldn't ever bother buying freesync monitor?

    I presume Windows 7 is the same.
     
  20. yasamoka

    yasamoka Ancient Guru

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    I don't understand what you want. I just presented you with cold, hard evidence from BlurBusters that took hundreds if not thousands of hours to compile, analyse, and draw out, along with our own experiences using G-Sync / FreeSync that confirm the BlurBusters findings independently (I've used both technologies), and you still want a confirmation from the two companies. Why the stubbornness?

    For the billionth time: The optimal way to use G-Sync / FreeSync, and it has been this way since the start, is to turn V-Sync ON preferably in driver, then cap your framerate 3FPS below your refresh rate with in-game framerate limiter or RTSS. Any OTHER combination of settings will either introduce, some or all of the time:

    1) V-Sync ON latency (close) @ FPS = refresh rate
    2) V-Sync OFF tearing & stutter @ FPS >= refresh rate
    3) Triple Buffering jitter @ FPS > refresh rate

    We have tested and confirmed these results. If you have a G-Sync / FreeSync monitor, you can do exactly the same. It's not rocket science. Try the settings and see for yourself.


    If only you'd actually open the links that were presented to you, you would realize that for a game like CS:GO that often runs in excess of 300FPS, the same, exact technique is needed to get the best out of G-Sync / FreeSync. Here's Overwatch @ 300FPS @ 240Hz:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
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