Elden Ring - A FromSoftware and George R.R. Martin product

Discussion in 'Games, Gaming & Game-demos' started by WhiteLightning, Jun 8, 2019.

  1. Ghosty

    Ghosty Ancient Guru

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    I fully expected the game to play the way it does, it was obvious. Graphically it looks, nice I guess. Not my cup of tea. It looks interesting though.
     
  2. WhiteLightning

    WhiteLightning Don Illuminati Staff Member

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    Souls games actually start with easy mode, then get more difficult every time you NG+

    It is a shame some people will not play past 1 playthrough as that misses the essence of the game.
     
  3. CPC_RedDawn

    CPC_RedDawn Ancient Guru

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    I LOVE the art direction/style of these type of games. They seriously have some extremely talented people here.

    However.....

    I find the Souls games and all other copycat games to be extremely tedious, they seem to be set up in a way to cause the player frustration over and over. The games are not hard in the slightest, but when a game has to literally set up unavoidable traps, hidden enemies, massive difficulty curves, or you have the game setup so you have to force players to replay through large chunks of the game over and over again whilst taking away everything they earned up until that point just to make a game longer... you really have a problem on your hands.

    I have completed DS1, 3, Blood Bourne, and Nioh 1 and I have to say I am done with these type of games. I remember specifically playing DS2 and quite early on the game had two paths to take. I walked right and immediately fell down an unavoidable open pit to my death. This forced me to replay a good 20 minutes of gameplay. So I got back to the same crossing and I went left, only for their to now be a large unavoidable boulder pushed into my direction once again leading to my death... I immediately switched the game off and have never opened it again and never will. This is NOT good game design, this is treating your players with complete disrespect. These games are nothing more than, for the most part, short linear "fun" houses with scripted events designed to piss the player off, only separated by some boss encounters that can have some of the most random animations and hidden/secret attacks once again forcing the player to replay massive chunks of the same game.

    If you like these games then fair enough, but please don't brag about being able to complete them as they are not hard at all they are just forcing repetition on you. This kind of gameplay style of repetition reminds me of the old arcade games where the developers would make the games insanely hard in order to force people to put in more money to play and beat the game. It is the same system only with these games your not only wasting money you are wasting time as well.
     
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  4. TheSissyOfFremont

    TheSissyOfFremont Master Guru

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    They don't force you to replay "massive" chunks for the most part though, the boss runs are normally not that long.
    The problem you're talking about - bad checkpoints, or a lack of quick-saving, is one of my biggest annoyances in video games, generally. I'm a massive save-scummer.
    What they are supposed to do (and do pretty effectively, most of the time) is force you to be significantly more cautious than you are typically.
    If you understand this, (and here's the important bit) and enjoy the atmosphere/feeling of tension this design creates, then you'll love Souls-likes.
    If you don't - then you wont.

    This is good game design, IMO, that balance of punishment/fairness is golden when done right. That's essentially what people love about SL's from a structural point of view.

    I don't enjoy the fundamentals of Rogue-likes and -lites.... I understand that it's just not for me.
    Those elements aren't objectively bad, they can be implemented poorly, sure... but sometimes you just have to realise when your opinion on something is subjective. I can't really judge Roguelikes fairly because I don't find that structure rewarding.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2021
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  5. CPC_RedDawn

    CPC_RedDawn Ancient Guru

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    Like I said in my original post dude:

    My post was just an opinion, like I said I do love the atmosphere, the art design, the lore, the settings, and the music. It's just the gameplay that drives me up a wall and it feels like the game is actively trying to punish the player for even purchasing the game in the first place most of the time through stuff that is beyond the players control the first time you encounter certain things. To ME that is not good game design, and its not like I haven't given the games a go my self. I basically forced my self to playthrough DS3 as I couldn't get enough of the atmosphere, setting, and music. But when it came to the gameplay I felt it was lacking compared to other more fleshed out games in terms of gameplay. But I must admit watching people speedrun these games is pretty freaking cool.
     
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  6. itpro

    itpro Maha Guru

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    People who love dying in games, must have serious phycological issues. Soul-like games are one level before self-destruction and suicidal behavior disorder. It is not normal sweating, heart-racing to avoid death, it isn't even joy. Gaming means entertainment.

    That's why an easy/story mode should be an enforced option to attract normal gamers who love the art style and atmosphere.
     
  7. TheSissyOfFremont

    TheSissyOfFremont Master Guru

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    This way of thinking is so utterly bizarre, and actually quite scary to me. Why can't you just be content with only liking one aspect of a game? Why does it need to change to suit you?
    I really like certain aspects of Disco Elysium, but ther are others that stop me from playing it.
    I would love to love it as much as others - what I don't do, is demand that it change so that I can!
    It's incredibly egotistical.

    It's literally no different to saying that a horror movie should have a non-scary version for children or people who don't like scary bits. Or even than a Pixar film should have a gory version for people who are into that.
     
  8. AsiJu

    AsiJu Ancient Guru

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    Lol, "normal" gamers...

    since the discussion is going towards this direction, last thing I'll say for now is looking forward to this game, I sincerely hope it adheres to the FromSoft formula and git gud, plebs!

    :p
     
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  9. CPC_RedDawn

    CPC_RedDawn Ancient Guru

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    That should not be the case, games can be fun whilst also presenting a challenge to the player. The whole idea that DS games are difficult is laughable, they are only difficult the first time you encounter something and after replaying the same areas over and over again is when you "master" the game. To me, this is a boring approach. There is only so much repetitiveness I can take until I lose interest. It's the hidden stuff within these games that just grinds me the wrong way, like having hidden enemies that jump you, or unavoidable traps you cant see. This is just to make the games longer and sort of artificially "harder" when in reality the actual gameplay (ie combat) is nothing more than learn enemy pattern then dodge, roll, parry, attack but not always in that order.

    Completing Doom Eternal Ancient Gods 1&2 on Ultra Nightmare is where you "git, gud" my kind sir :p
     
  10. AsiJu

    AsiJu Ancient Guru

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    Agreed.

    Okay just a bit more Souls:

    A major philosophy on each of them is punishing the player for being careless.

    True you cannot know first time there's an enemy or trap around the corner but always assume there is.
    It does slow the pace and not everyone likes this kind of design but it's very intentional and creates this puzzle-like gameplay element.

    Just like Hugo Martin said about Eternal, we aren't afraid of frustrating the player as long as we have something to teach.

    Souls follow a very similar approach.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2021

  11. Dragam1337

    Dragam1337 Ancient Guru

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    Yeah, cause being frustrated is really fun, and what you want to spend your precious sparetime being...

    Again, there is a reason why DS and the likes of it arent exactly gta 5 blockbusters - most people dont exactly enjoy DS and that kinda "fun" game design.
     
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  12. AsiJu

    AsiJu Ancient Guru

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    I must ask:

    why are people who don't like these games - which is fine by me if that wasn't clear already - often so vocally against people who do like them?

    Calling them tryharders or what you just described me as, thank you for that.

    Why does it bother you if I or others like Souls or other challenging games?

    True story: I have never been truly frustrated with a Souls game, apart from a very certain bit in DS 2 DLC.
    Every death is clearly my own mistake and I usually have an idea right away what went wrong -> know what I need to do better next time.

    I enjoy overcoming a challenge, for me that's rewarding and serves a purpose, so to speak.
    Not least because mastery often means you can walk through content that used to be near impossible first.

    Whether you become frustrated or not and how you deal with it is dictated by your own mindset.
    In real life too.

    To again draw a parallel to this certain game, failing an Ultra Nightmare attempt frustrates me greatly, but that just drives me to retry.
    And the frustration stems from losing all progress instead of feeling like the game screwed me over.

    Why do I even play permadeath?
    Because I feel it's the appropriately challenging mode for me atm. and a challenge I wish to overcome.
    Sure I play casual regular Nightmare often too!
     
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  13. Dragam1337

    Dragam1337 Ancient Guru

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    My problem is that the game could easily cater to both audiences, if they just included a difficulty slider (as doom does), but at the mere suggestion of doing that, the tryhard crowd starts crying...
     
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  14. AsiJu

    AsiJu Ancient Guru

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    Some are perhaps principally more against that than others and from a game design perspective I understand why.

    I too do believe that as far as current FromSoft games are concerned, it wouldn't really work, for reasons I described earlier.

    If Elden Ring ends up having selectable difficulty and From finds a way to scale the game properly then why not.
    But I'll repeat once more, DS games are challenging, not consistent banging your head against a wall, unless you outright refuse to stop trying something that clearly doesn't work (for which you can only blame yourself in any game).

    Again, don't like them as they are then don't, but neither do you need to be a masochist to play them.

    Now excuse me while I'll go resume my UN attempt of base campaign in Eternal (at that darn Cultist Base. Again...).
     
  15. TheSissyOfFremont

    TheSissyOfFremont Master Guru

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    Conjecture.

    That just isn't true. See the video I posted on the previous page.

    As has been pointed out, the difficulty does not come purely from the mechanics - which are not that hard. (Sekiro is a lot more challenging in that regard)
    But from the player having to restrain themselves.
    If you add a difficulty slider, people will not have the self restraint to leave the game at it's intended difficulty level.
    Which in turn means that a core mechanic of the game (i.e: it being punishing to the point of forcing you to be uber cautious) is negated and the game as a whole is entirely debased.

    People will not be able to set the difficulty to an appropriate level by themselves.

    The phantom system is the way Fromsoft ease it - you literally get to summon NPC's or other players to help you. (and another reason why Sekiro is much harder than DS)
     

  16. Dragam1337

    Dragam1337 Ancient Guru

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    Read the last part of what you quoted.

    Your issue is that you think it should be punishing, and therefore everyone should have that same experience - but guess what, most people dont want a punishing experience. Hence why most people play on normal or "story only".
     
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  17. TheSissyOfFremont

    TheSissyOfFremont Master Guru

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    Then the game is not for them.

    "Most people like Red, so that Purple game should be Red"

    Really, try watching the video I posted - it's a very eloquent rebuttal to your position.
     
  18. Dragam1337

    Dragam1337 Ancient Guru

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    It easily could be - with a difficulty slider. It wouldnt subtract from your playing experience that others play on "story only", but it sounds like it aint really about that, but rather that you don't want scrubs to easy mode their way through a game that in your opinion should be punishing... cause then you cant show off that epeen when you completed it... is usually what it comes down to with the tryhard crowd.
     
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  19. TheSissyOfFremont

    TheSissyOfFremont Master Guru

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    I take it you didn't watch the video then...?
     
  20. itpro

    itpro Maha Guru

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    Well we all agree that we disagree. I played since day one Demon Souls back in PS3 era and I hated it. I loved the atmosphere, audio and graphics. I wished it was more forgiving. But who am I a mere pleb crying according to you "hardcores". Anyway, enjoy only a game for your clique.
     

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