Discussion in 'Frontpage news' started by Hilbert Hagedoorn, Mar 5, 2020.
Its a shame we dont get to see the awkwardness though. 2010's konami presentation is my favorite.
I never said that, so stop putting words in my mouth, we were talking about mortality, numbers. Probably you miss the point how really is the healthcare system in Italy (which some data were spread only in the last two weeks to the public, like the real number of available bed places of intensive care, which is less then x5 time then Germany), so you cannot understand why an estimated (by the virus model) mortality rate of 0.7% jumped over 4.5-5% here in this country. The real challenge here is prevent to spread this crap in the south of the country, where healthcare is more like 3rd world.
You are absolutely wrong.
Vaccines are renewed annually and save lives: elderly, children and people with weakened immune systems.
Statistically, vaccines have reduced mortality, ensuring better quality of life.
In some "Third World" countries, health plans are working better than in the USA, cheaper and with greater coverage.
Just like medicines, which cost a fraction of what is charged on Uncle Sam's land.
And the public health system may not be perfect, but it has saved me when necessary. One week of hospitalization at no cost.
USA is the most inhumane country on the planet, putting profit above everything, even above the lives of sick people.
The flu vaccine has negative efficacy, the risks and resulting reduction in the bodies ability to adapt to new pathogens is not worth it.
Don't waste your time with it, load up on vitamin A, C and D drops, prepare vegetable soup stock in advance and don't go to school/work if you feel fluish. DO NOT SUGAR LOAD.
Trials for the superior Flu vaccine are underway, it is projected to have lasting protection and won't require seasonal genetic guesswork.
Mortality rates and increases in life expectancy strongly disagree with you.
A vaccine makes the person immune to the virus.
The following season's vaccine will include the mutated virus.
You do not weaken the body, you simulate a viral infection and make the body immune.
You are confusing viruses with bacterias.
The science doesn't.
I am not, the body's response to RNA based illness (like Coronavirus) puts the body into overdrive in comparison to more common bacterial infection, which makes it more likely to succumb to a follow up bacterial infection, or even another viral infection (coronavirus reinfection) when the body has depleted its vitamin reserves and cannot create NK cells, interferons, and cytotoxic T cells.
Vitamin A deficiency impairs cytotoxic T lymphocyte activity
Vitamin D deficiency leave the lungs vulnerable to significant damage and bronchial reinfection by bacteria
Vitamin C is a direct component in immunity being an antioxidant and cofactor in biosynthesis and gene regulatory enzymes.
The elderly tend to be lacking significantly in Vitamin D, raising their risk of developing pneumonia, and lets face it, some of the folks homes they are in are not catering to their nutritional needs either.
Science discovered viruses.
Science created vaccines.
Science renews vaccines with new mutations of already known viruses.
Science recommends vaccines.
World Health Organization recommends vaccines.
Statistics is mathematics, mathematics is science.
You have no idea what you're talking about, you are literally an ignorant in that matter.
I will not say that it is your case, but this kind of misinformation is usually born in alt-right conspiracy theories.
- Science also creates viruses
. - Science created the theory of vaccination. Pharmaceutical companies create vaccines. The same pharmaceutical companies that cover up severe increases in likelihood of deaths and have been Sued for it and fined countless times where Medicational Drugs are concerned. (The same ones that are immune from public litigation for Vaccine damage through any cause, including negligence)
The decision “leaves a regulatory vacuum in which no one ensures that vaccine manufacturers adequately take account of scientific and technological advancements when designing and distributing their products,” Justice Sotomayor wrote.
- A Vaccine that stops being effective within weeks is called an experiment.
Mercke is currently undergoing litigation through a different channel regarding their MMR efficacy based on several defecting scientists letting the government know that data has been getting falsified to continue receiving a federal contract.
- Science recommended smoking.
- the world health organisation has too many pharmaceutical lobbyists to be considered an impartial advocate of health and well being, and continues to push the faulty heart health myth about cholesterol
- The typical comment from someone who has no legitimate argument apart from "oh but the guy who read a book that says "don't question it" said so. That's called religion buddy.
. - I Refer you back to http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-pers...u-vaccine-protection-starts-wane-within-weeks
Vaccines only work when you're fully informed on how they work. They do not "Prevent" getting ill, They reduce the spread of it by reducing how long you're an asymptomatic carrier. If you continue to present yourself in public once you do have symptoms then you're counteracting the notion of Herd Immunity - Which in actual definition is the removal of a sick member of the herd until they are no longer unwell (Ask a farmer).
If you prefer to believe in conspiracy theories and ideological doctrinal convenience, this is your problem.
I prefer to believe in science and empirical knowledge.
Be happy in your ignorance, since it is optional, but don't try to popularize your misinformation.
Misinformation can cause thousands of deaths, misinformation kills and at the moment you are an accomplice.
Ah, in Brazil, vaccines are free for the entire population, so I don't see an "Illuminati
conspiracy", since diseases cause losses to the financial market.
A little bit of logical reasoning and you would notice the fragility of your information sources.
Science is not empirical knowledge,
Science stops being science when declarations such as "The science is settled" are made.
Did you know Anti-climate activists (Politicians especially) use "The science is settled" and refer to a freak storm that is abnormal for the time of year as proof the planet isn't warming.
But please, get your useless flu vaccine that doesn't last long enough to make a difference but certainly reduces your biochemical ability to combat an onset of coronavirus.
Invalid counter, Just because they are free to the people, doesn't mean they aren't paid for.
My sources are peer reviewed journals, You've countered with nothing except your head in the sand.
lol, "science is not empirical knowledge".
Corona is not a flu virus.
Vaccine for flu does not affect the corona, vaccine for corona will not affect the flu.
You are a complete ignorant.
Thanks for confirming my opinion about your sources.
I dropped the microphone, I give up on you, you're a hopeless case.
You probably only watch Fox "News", so watch:
Gonna wade into this discussion just to say it is more nuanced than the debate above me.
Vaccines do reduce the chance of developing and adapting to other illnesses for some people (and in novel ways we might not have considered), though the rest would not adapt and simply die.
However, there are also cases where the body simply just cannot deal with infections, and evolution leads to other mechanisms as a semi-innate defense such as cystic fibrosis for TB, or sickle cell/thalassaemia for malaria.
Vaccines are effective, adaption of humans overestimated considering rate of death of many of them to preventable illnesses, particularly those with immature or impaired immune system where waiting and hoping for adaptation is not really an option. Vaccinating people in the old days was sniffing a bit of a crust from another person's illness, which conferred surprisingly good immune cover in the case of smallpox.The long term battle of vaccination is finding which bit of said illness can be put into a vaccine so that the human body can immediately recognise a weak point within the disease, a certain receptor or molecule that its pathogenicity depends on and deactivate it completely, which is really hard to do. Thus we do the next best thing, either destory infections so your body recognises some component bits and can react sooner and more effectively, you pick something similar to the problem so you get some cross reactivity protection like TB vaccine, or you culture weakened versions of your existing viruses so the body has a warm up round before facing the real thing like the MMR vaccine. Of course, these confer varying amounts of protection, hence why herd immunity remains a huge factor, as total protection to disease at a population level remains unknown (lets not forget those whose immune systems as unable to receive vaccines or deal with infections).
Zoonotic originating diseases such as Covids, influenza strains, swine flu, ebola etc. typically the body struggles to respond adequately to (also all RNA viruses as pointed out already, well placed to hijack cellular mechanisms immediately). Classically either body is overwhelmed resulting in prolonged illness or body overreacts, where body then suffers effect of overreaction such as acute respiratory distress syndrome in Covid19 often leading to hospitalisation (interestingly pregnant women and young children who have dampened down immunities with this seem to be protected from the worst outcomes of Covid so far, possibly due to this)
Vitamins will not be the decider of a positive or negative outcome unless you are grossly deficient, and typically in the nutrients needed for immunomaturation e.g. folic acid, b12, vit D etc.
Vitamin A itself in excess is also cytotoxic and bad for infection, and good for cancer, hence why derivatives form the basis of treatment for acute leukaemias, so moderation will probably be safer than superloading (except water soluble ones where you will pee them out within 6 hours with almost fluorescent urine)
The biggest point here is that people should not underestimate this. The closest resemblance we are seeing to Covid with regards to population spread from our recent history is probably spanish flu, which ended up having 3 phase, the first was contageous but not horrendous, however it was reinfection a few months later in the second phase which killed most people who caught it, including the otherwise young and healthy.
Lastly good luck to all and hope you stay well.
Or those who can receive repeats of the same vax but don't have a titre score reflecting immunity. This one happens a lot - and their immune system is otherwise normal functioning.
In the groups where the highest mortality exists, nutrition and prior health and well being are a key factor that South Korean doctors are focusing on.
I agree, vaccine responses are mixed, and falls into the consideration of the herd immunity. You vaccinate all, but cannot guarantee that all are immune, you hope that simply enough are protected so that if one gets sick, there aren't enough vulnerable individuals in the herd for the disease to continue incubating and spreading. A well designed vaccine will stimulate the development of the same immunoglobulins that immunocompetent people develop following fighting off infections, hopefully with low morbidity. How you decide which are the best to pursue when people's responses to certain diseases vary is part of the art of the development.
Titre thresholds can be useful, but at times also relatively arbitrary. For example hepatitis B surface antibody is assessed, but internationally quite different thresholds exist. Most of the world uses a 10-12miu/ml threshold while the UK I think works to 100 miu/ml for their healthcare workers. There are also instances in clinical practice where checking immunity to certain diseases simply involves detecting a presence of the correct immunoglobulin is enough to point towards immunity, rather than the amount of it e.g. varicella in pregnancy cases where you have to assess if a mother has immunity to pass on to the fetus.
As for accuracy as to how thresholds actually correlate with fending off disease, it is difficult to really know as
a) we are all different
b) it is unethical to infect people with certain titre levels to see how well they do
c) titre levels fluctuate due to a variety of reasons (including concurrent illness, time from disease exposure, age) but also does not mean your body has lost the plasma cells to make the desired immune response.
For example, in 2009 with the resurgence of swine flu where the older population had relative immunity, having already survived a similar flu epidemic some 50+ years prior, and gave them additional protection but most likely these individuals would have low to undetectable titres for these viruses prior to re-exposure.
Nutrition, prior health and well being are amongst the biggest factors in all areas of living healthily, not just coronavirus. Also vitamins and nutrition interrelate but are not the same. You can be loaded up on vitamins and still suffer due to calorific starvation.
Indeed, I see these people on low calorie diets and they look so sickly all the time, body needs calories to burn, especially so when sick.
The numbers look small now, but exponential math may shed some light....
Outside China, the number of daily new cases in the world is doubling every 4-5 days. Keep en eye on that. You can open up the daily WHO report and see these numbers on the top right of every report. There is no cure, and no one has immunity. This is why alarm bells are sounding.
Look at how quickly exponential virus growth happens. At that rate, the world could reach over 1 billion infected before June. And not even counting China here:
Date // Daily New // Total cases // Deaths
2-21 /// 127 /////////// 1200 ///////////// 8
2-26 /// 459 /////////// 2918 ///////////// 44
3-02 /// 1600 ///////// 8774 ///////////// 128
3-07 /// 3633 ///////// 21,110 ////////// 413
3-12 /// 6703 ///////// 44,067 ////////// 1440
Data Source: WHO Daily Situation Reports
(total cases extrapolation)
3-17 ////////////////////// 88,128
3-22 ////////////////////// 176,526
3-27 ////////////////////// 352,512
4-01 ////////////////////// 705,024
4-06 ////////////////////// 1,410,048
4-11 ////////////////////// 2,820,096
4-16 ////////////////////// 5,640,192
4-21 ////////////////////// 11,280,384
4-28 ////////////////////// 22,560,768
5-02 ////////////////////// 45,121,536
5-07 ////////////////////// 90,243,072
5-12 ////////////////////// 180,486,144
5-17 ////////////////////// 360,972,288
5-22 ////////////////////// 721,944,576
5-27 ////////////////////// 1,443,889,152 ---- (merely 1% is over 14 million people dead, let alone 3.4% (~50M) at this data point)
In reality, it doesn't need to get to those levels to have complete collapse of the economy.
With just 1 million cases (critical "awareness" number, aka "OMG THERE'S OVER 1 MILLION PEOPLE SICK???"), nobody in their right mind will go to work anymore.
So while the number of deaths might stay relatively low, just in the several tens of thousands max, the world financial system will be completely crushed.