DVI output & 60Hz refreshrate

Discussion in 'Videocards - NVIDIA Modified Drivers' started by trodas, Jan 28, 2009.

  1. trodas

    trodas Master Guru

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    Unless I'm mistaken, older early Forceware drivers (aka Detonators back there) has a refreshrate problem. On DVI was possible only 60Hz. At least my old beta ones, 45.28, can't seems to show more that 60Hz on LCD monitor pluged into the old 5600XT cardie using DVI connection - while the same drivers did not have a problem with 100Hz refresh on CRT.

    So, couple of questions. First - I'm right these old drivers are 60Hz on DVI limited?

    Second - in witch first version of Forceware drivers this 60Hz DVI limit was fixed?

    Third - how the fix looks like? Eg. it is possible to somewhat inject it into more early Deton... Forceware drivers?
     
  2. Cybermancer

    Cybermancer Don Quixote

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    You're comparing apples to oranges, trodas.

    One time you're looking at the refresh rate of an LCD and then at that of a CRT.

    Most LCD monitors are limited to 60 Hz anyway, so maybe yours is also?

    Look into the manual or maybe you can post the model you have.
     
  3. trodas

    trodas Master Guru

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    Uhm, I did not comparing anything. I know that CRT's advantage are being capable of like 160Hz refresh, but LCD's are fairly limited. Mine BenQ FP75G is limited to 76Hz anyway. I would like to see 72Hz there :) With old drivers, that it is. With new ones - of course, 72Hz setting possible. But speed suxx badly. With old ones - no refreshrate settings. Forcing 72Hz by ReForce = BSOD on boot "inacessible device" :D
     
  4. zogger

    zogger Member

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    Major difference comparing a digital signal to a analogue. I remember the days of changing the refresh rate but generally this could be done via dxdiag and forcing directx. However not sure on why limitations on a DVI cable would be at 60hz and cant be increased, then again LCD's are bound by the response rate (on and off or gray to gray etc) and are able to hold a constant image whilst CRT's are incapable of holding a constant image hence the flickering at 60hz and the need to increase the Hz to increase the redraw. On saying, some purists out there believe that the refresh rate needs to increase on LCD's at HD 1080p for fast action motion video but then how does the relation ship between response rate and refresh rate affect this?

    Still it doesnt answer your question why the DVI cable is locked at 60hz.. can any ATI users compare if this option is the same.
     

  5. trodas

    trodas Master Guru

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    Well, mainly the discussion is drifting way away from it's purpose or even from answering the basic questions:

    1) Was there a 60Hz limit?

    2) If yes, then in witch Detonators was first fixed?

    3) How?

    4) Is the fix possible to repeat on older Detonators?
     
  6. ricardonuno1980

    ricardonuno1980 Banned

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    when the response time is shorter, the motion blur is shorter.
    when the refresh rate is faster, the flicker is lower.

    the crt is better option for gaming or video with 50 or 60 fps until OLED will release!! because crt - "60Hz + 60 fps w/ vsync = up to infinity fps" is much smoother than "120Hz + 60 fps w/ vsync = 60fps "real"". :D I love too crt 21" samsung 1100DF (max "custom" 2560x1920@56Hz* o_O :D) and oled (but stll not to release in Portugal :S)!!

    * - for windows vista only
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2009
  7. Deathspank

    Deathspank Maha Guru

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    99% of lcd's have a refresh rate of 60Hz so thats all the drivers are going to show you. its limitation of the technology not the driver support.
     
  8. morbias

    morbias Don TazeMeBro Staff Member

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    This thread is straying away from the original question.

    I don't think anyone's going to have an answer to your question trodas, because I don't anyone will be able to remember that far back. I've got a 75Hz LCD hooked up on DVI and for as long as I can remember the drivers have always allowed the correct resolution.

    Why not try some recent Forceware drivers, or is there a specific reason you want to use Detonators?
     
  9. linyanti

    linyanti Master Guru

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    Is the following on the right topic or is it something else?

    Here are the release notes for the suggested driver (175.19) on January 28, 2009 for a 5600XT. It shows lots of refresh rates. But these are usually crt's and not lcd's. I recall crt's with dvi inputs but I do not know what they would have had as a refresh rate. The refresh rate is highly dependent on the color bit level.

    http://us.download.nvidia.com/Windows/175.19/175.19_WinXP_GeForce_Release_Notes.pdf

    The new Samsung has a 120HZ refresh rate but it will only work with newer cards. Specifically for the 3D

    http://www.nvidia.com/object/GeForce_3D_Vision_Requirements.html
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2009
  10. Threewheels

    Threewheels Master Guru

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    Like morbius said, I don't think anyone is going to know when >60hz was supported on LCDs. Although I do remember the first LCD I bought about 5-6 years ago supported both 60 and 72 hz over DVI. I remember trying both settings, and 72 hz was actually worse than 60hz for games and video. I believe this was because the monitor's pixel response time was around 15-20ms. The pixels need a certain amount of time to switch between colors, and with the refresh rate at 72 hz, there wasn't quite enough time between re-draws for the pixels to complete their change. So there was all kinds of ghosting and smearing when playing games. Set it back to 60hz, and the ghosting and smearing completely went away. Probably not as much of an issue for newer monitors, but interesting nonetheless.

    I don't think you'll get higher than 60hz unless you try a newer driver.
     

  11. trodas

    trodas Master Guru

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    morbias -
    Much to my dismay, yep. And yes, there are two very specific reasons why I need to keep these old Detonator 45.28 drivers. One is SPEED. All other drivers are notably slow, IIRC I measured almost 300% slowdown in Quake 3 FPS, but it could be only 30%, not remember now correctly. 300% seems to be overkill, but I think it was that much slower with new drivers...

    Second is fog. In some older games (and what else you can run on 5600XT crap) are option to enable/disable in game fog. I did not like it much, so, disable. It work ONLY into these drivers and never in any more recent drivers. So, a good thing to do. Almost a cheat, sometimes: http://doublescan.wz.cz/g.php?p=detonators&d=1&v=v2

    And there is also a third reason - why not to learn how to modify something, right?


    linyanti -
    To me it looks like something else, but sorry to say - you seems to be part of it. I did not asked for recommended drivers for my FX600XT card, nor for any other info you kindly provided.


    Threewheels -
    So, where to find the nVidia driver moders? Someone who is actually informed and can hack INTO the drivers and can tell me a thing or two? I thought on this forum I could get some infos...

    LOL ... Luckily, situation was improved even since. 72Hz are pretty good and notably better on the particular BenQ FP75G LCD monitor :)

    ...or unless I somewhat manage to hack this one, witch is why I writing this thread :)
     
  12. Cybermancer

    Cybermancer Don Quixote

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    Maybe this section fits your needs better, trodas. ;)

    Videocards - NVIDIA Modified Drivers
    http://forums.guru3d.com/forumdisplay.php?f=47

    I already moved your thread there... :cool:
     
  13. trodas

    trodas Master Guru

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    Thanks.
    Maybe it do. The drivers I using are not modified ... or at least not much now :) I just added to them support for the 5600XT - they already had 5600 support, but not for XT...

    Originally they are nVidia beta drivers, that it is.
     
  14. trodas

    trodas Master Guru

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    So, anyone dare to suggest me some way to be able change the refreshrate in my drivers from 60Hz to anything else? :)

    On the very same monitor BenQ FP75G my friend with other nVidia gfx card run at 72Hz (or 75Hz) w/o troubles, also by DVI, so... how to convince old drivers to do the trick?
     
  15. trodas

    trodas Master Guru

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    After some Windows install tweakings, I decided to "give it a try" and check out 53.03 WHQ drivers for the weird "60Hz only" problem. Much to my dismay, the "60Hz only" problem seems to persist.

    [​IMG]

    Dunno why. Even in lower resolution the driver "force" 60Hz. Is there ANY way to lift this limit? Im affraid that if I use ReForce and force the refresh higher, then upon reboot I got BSOD "inacessible device":)

    Not that there is anything wrong with BSOD, yet I would rather see another result :)
     

  16. trodas

    trodas Master Guru

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    Forceware (I still like the old Detonators better...) 81.95 WHQ - still 60Hz only:

    [​IMG]

    I beginning to feel that the problem is "somewhere else". I checked the bios setting and yes, there it is - the DDC scanning was skiped on the boot, so it might do somehing bad. Changed it, but no difference... Maybe reinstall again?

    Is there any way to check if the GFX card bios properly reporting the capability of more Hz or not? The problem was not when I used the same card with VGA output and CRT monitor, yet using DVI and LCD monitor I running into a 60Hz wall ... :(
     
  17. trodas

    trodas Master Guru

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    Looks like Linux users find a way:
    http://us.download.nvidia.com/XFree86/Linux-x86/1.0-9746/README/appendix-d.html
    Now let's hope I can find a way to fix this problem in Windows too...

    I reasonably believe that since the 5600XT can do 2048x1538 pixels in 80Hz refresh, then it sure can do 1280x1024 in 75Hz. eVGA says 5600XT it can do 150Hz in 1280x1024:
    www.evga.com/products/pdf/N317.pdf

    As the Linux solution suggest, the drivers cap the refreshrate to 60Hz, because they detect "some lower quality TMDS encoders are only rated to drive DFPs at 60Hz"... But since the very same TMDS encoder can give me output resolution of 2048x1538 pixels in 60Hz refresh, then sure as hell it can give me 1280x1024 in 75Hz. As on Linux :)

    Now the question is only how to duplicate the Linux nVidia drivers option "AllowNon60HzDFPModes". Anyone can shred some light at this?

    I, personally, see only two ways.
    1) change/patch/modify the drivers somehow to allow the non 60Hz DFP modes even on 5600XT card
    2) change/patch/modify the GFX card bios to not report lower quality TMDS encoder, thus allowing drivers to set up higher refreshrates

    Who can help me to get same results on Windows as on Linux are possible?
     
  18. Mineria

    Mineria Ancient Guru

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    Well, if you manage to force 60Hz + and burn your LCD, don't come here and whine after wards.
    Most LCD Monitors are capped at 60Hz.
    There are some newer models out that support 100 and 120Hz.

    READ: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refresh_rate
     
  19. Pill Monster

    Pill Monster Banned

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    Dude just use PowerStrip - it's as easy as 1,2,3...;)

    Or you can use RivaTuner's refresh rate overrider.

    Good luck...


    btw what drivers are you using? - that Nvidia Control Panel looks like it's about 100 years old....
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2009
  20. trodas

    trodas Master Guru

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    Mineria - jezus christ... dude... in the second post I already mentioned that "Mine BenQ FP75G is limited to 76Hz anyway.". Can't you read?
    http://www.superwarehouse.com/BenQ_FP75G_17_LCD_Monitor/FP75G/p/1497679


    Pillmonster -
    Last time I checked it out, it did not allow me what I wanted. Could do it again, but forcing 75Hz will probably end up with BSOD, unless the limitation is - like on Linux - lifted somehow.

    Using ReForce caused BSOD on next reboot as "inacessible device" for GFX card.

    As I explained before, I tried several, but the screenshots are from 53.03 WHQ and 81.95 WHQ. Both informations are mentioned in the respective posts, close to the pictures, dude...


    PS. as I wrote, PowerStip failed to change the 60Hz refresh in ANY resolution. You can click on the lock in 1280x1024 or 640x400 - it does NOT matter. It never allow you to change the cursed 60Hz refreshrate:

    [​IMG]

    ...yet it allow you as high, as 2048x1536 pixels resolution, but that it is. 60Hz only and always. Like I already mention, the limitations - like in Linux - HAS TO BE lifted in the drivers first.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2009

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