Do you think this forum needs to be closed?

Discussion in 'RivaTuner Advanced Discussion forum' started by Unwinder, Oct 23, 2007.

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  1. Unwinder

    Unwinder Moderator Staff Member

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    And I really apreciate your suggestions and thank you for your wish to help solving the problem. You’re not mistaking, these things are really sad and hard to read for me, but only because I’ve read similar suggestions here many times in the past. Believe me, I was not just sitting and not evolving during these 7 years. I’ve shown you a few examples of the same suggestions given by the same enthusiasts like you in the past, which were also supposed to magically change the situation and make most users READ and USE SEARCH. Which were implemented and taken months of work time, but actually changed absolutely nothing.
    In my understanding everything is much simpler, some are just reading documentations regardless of documentation format and access way and others just don’t do it under any conditions. That's not a question of GUI, that’s not a question of documentation format and documentation access way, that a question of user's attitude. There were, there are and there always will be a lot of guys with "I don’t want to read anything, just give me the answer" attitude, seeing nothing but their own problem which they want to solve ASAP by any means necessary. And amount of such questions in the forum depends on one and the only one factor – user base size.
     
  2. Andrés

    Andrés Ancient Guru

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    Just ignore them and concentrate on issues that really need your attention. It's not an "all or nothing" problem, meaning that you have more options besides the extremism of answering all posts or closing the forum. Find an equilibrium between both ends and things will improve a lot :thumbup:
     
  3. Unwinder

    Unwinder Moderator Staff Member

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    That's exactly what I'm trying to do now. Let's hope that it will work.
     
  4. THE JEW (RaVeN)

    THE JEW (RaVeN) Active Member

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    Yes, for those of us who use the search please keep it open. I have many links bookmarked. If you're going to close the forum, please let us know with a timeline so that I can go in and copy down all the info I want.

    Please don't close the Rivatuner "library."
     

  5. F1refly

    F1refly Ancient Guru

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    but he has no control of that, you cant force people to not use or do or whatever. so whats the point in even complaining about how people dont research?

    most of unwinder's responses here is basically just arguing...see he's not trying to better himself as everyone can clearly see above. he's being defensive, selfishly arguing his opinions as fact. yet at the same time he makes this thread, almost as a threat more than anything asking for advice as to why some people are bashing him (duh) and then turns around at every "alternative insight" and tries to throw it back at them as if he's right no matter what ...its an act of stubborness that is contradictive to this thread.

    he also seems to really like arguing with warlord for some reason, maybe cause the truth is hurting his feelings? or the reality he doesnt see is conflicting with his pride?
    either way we should close this thread cause the guy does NOT want to learn behavioral changes and is more satisified with being abrasive
     
  6. boogieman

    boogieman Ancient Guru

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    It's his software and his forum. If you don't like either then don't use them. I'm not trying to be rude but you made your point so let him work it out.

    Did ya ever hear of the Chinese water torture? That must be what it feels like for him to have the same ?'s over and over. :)
     
  7. Grandpa01

    Grandpa01 New Member

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    I have just read through all of these post. And a good portion of it was crap. I have helped by answering questions on many forums and I am a senior member on a couple. If you have the experience with the public that Unwinder and myself have then you would understand the frustration of people asking the same questions over and over. Especially when the answers are available if you do a little searching. Most people are to lazy to search and want someone to give them the answer. Hell in my opinion if you are to lazy to search then don't use the tool.

    The ones that really get me are the ones that post I have searched every where and can not find the answer. And they have a common newbie problem which is answered in the stickies. Yeah you did allot of searching what did you look at the number of pages and say screw it there are to many post there to read.

    Any way Unwinder I understand your frustration. Keep the forum open as you stated. And if some idiot post a stupid thread then treat it appropriately. And by the way the appropriate way to answer a question is however you decide to answer it.

    Thank you for your work on RivaTuner and the forum.
     
  8. Unwinder

    Unwinder Moderator Staff Member

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    Everything is much simpler, mate. I've replied to warl0rd's postings because I remember his previous postings here in this forum, because he took part in closed RivaTuner alpha-testing so I clearly see that the he is _really_ trying to improve the tool and forum and offer the _solutions_. Yes, I don't think that these solutions will work, and I've tried to explain him why.
    I also reply to any post in this thread if I see that the man is offering something _constructive_ (even if I've already probed that amd think that it won't work).
    And honestly, I'm really wondering what you or others who don't use RT at all (!!!) do in this thread. If you were trying to say "close the forum, selfish guy" then I've got your position from your first posting. No need to repeat it.
    By the way, you were correct in one thing: I'm really not trying to better myself and the thread was created absolutely not for that. I was trying to improve the way of sharing my hobby (RivaTuner) with the community. And the thread was created to see if the forum is needed for that or not.
    If you're trying to change me and explain me that I simply have to improve myself and start patiently answering newbie qustions and addressing false bugreports, then you're just wasting your time.
     
  9. Capt Proton

    Capt Proton Member Guru

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    Unwinder
    Great program, very useful and effective, but you, my friend, should avoid being the front man. No shame in that, some folks are the right type to interface with the "customer", some are not.
    I will give you an example. The famous read the manual. What manual? If you are referring to the documentation in the actual program file, then a couple of things.
    1. finding it could be a problem for some folks. A lot of people expect to find the "manual" in the Help files.
    2. the only place with any real information in this document is the release notes, and that is an incredibly disorganized approach. Any manual I've ever used has the information associated with the feature in the table of contents.
    3. right click help. Much better than the manual, but, an example. If you right click on the frequency adjustment sliders in the overclocking section, it refers to the registry items Minclock level and Max Clock level. Trial and error will reveal that Registry items are in the Power User tab. OK, no biggie. Now, where do I find the values themselves? Again, trial and error opening and closing of the various categories, with 700 entries to look through. To say the least, the learning curve is extreme due to the lack of a go here, click this help system. Remember, you know the program inside out, most of us do not.
    There are folks on this forum that, IMHO, know the program pretty well. If you were to give a few of them a private PM address for yourself, then they could answer the questions, and PM you when they are stuck. They could also provide you with filtered feedback, issues and questions, that would allow you to focus on what you are best at, writing software.
    I use Oskar Wu and DFI forums as an example. Oscar answers a lot of questions, but primarily through the mods. He does post occasionally, but he usually stays in the background.
    This is not a flame of any sort, it is my opinion.
     
  10. Hlafordlaes

    Hlafordlaes Active Member

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    Some Suggestions

    Dear Unwinder,

    I think RT deserves a separate forum section on its own; that is, a section divided into topic areas much like the Videocards or Hardware sections on Guru3D. (Site and server resources permitting, of course.)

    This would allow the creation of sections like, for example:
    - First time users
    - Installation and driver databases
    - Overclocking
    - Fans and monitoring
    - Quadro modding
    - Advanced tweaking and scripting, with sharing of downloadable presets.

    I would suggest that volunteer moderators could then move posts to the proper sections,
    and you would ignore, say, anything posted or moved to the First Time Users section. Documentation is a weaker side of the tool, and special topic sections with directly related stickies should help in searching for and finding answers.

    You might also consider allowing donations and then restricting access to all but the First Time Users and Installation sections to non-members. You could then restrict your own time in the forums to members only. This might alleviate some of the frustration you feel.

    As for your public relations skills... I personally think it's fine for you to be who you are and act as you please. It's your tool and your area of the Guru3D forum, end of story.

    ...

    Things I'd Like
    My own personal desire is to be able to right click on the driver entries under the Power User tab and get some indication of what the entry means and what the allowed value range is. I realize that is a tall order, so I wonder if some of the more knowledgeable users might cooperate with you on creating those entries. (I, for example, go in there and enable Enable256Burst, but I don't really know if/when that is a useful tweak.)

    Another idea might be to publish a method for creating a new driver database file, so that users could create databases for both old (94.24!) and new drivers and publish them in the Installation section. Yes, RT works fine when there is no matching driver database, but the error message creates a lot of doubt, especially for new users (and slow learners like me.)

    ...

    Thank you, and keep up the good work, sir.
     

  11. mikeyakame

    mikeyakame Master Guru

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    Unwinder,

    I'll address you as well as everybody else, since you've clearly stated this thread isn't just about yourself, but rather how improvements could be made upon your product.

    To begin with, in my humble opinion the method of documentation is perfectly acceptable, I could even go as far as saying its exceptional. It's far more documentation than is provided by many many developers, open source, commercial, or even freeware. It's obvious how much time you have put into the context helps, the faq's, the changelogs, etc. And for the most part, if one buries their head deep enough into these, there the answer lies.

    It's clearly obvious that many here posting about how poor the documentation is, have never tried to get their heads around open source software, which fundamentally contains a readme, an install guide, a changelog for the builds (which contains most of the user accessible additions), and a faq which contains commonly asked newb questions (to save the developer the time having to do what you are doing, constantly answering the same questions, until it does your head in.)

    In most cases, this supplied documentation along with forums, mailing lists, and developers web pages, can answer 9 out of 10 questions, and most of the time, with a little bit of ingenuity and due diligence the remaining question can also be answered on ones own. I've always got my head down in *nix documentation, or if that can't answer my questions, I'm googling for similar scenarios, trudging through pages and pages of forum responses, or worst case I'll set aside a few hours and start pummeling through the source code (in the case of open source), searching for an answer. If all else fails, I'll quickly through the developer an email with a lengthy question, explaining what I've discovered, and what exactly I am trying to do, and if they know of a method to do this, or have even coded one into it.

    I rarely get an any angry responses, and a lot of the time they are more than happy to spend the time writing an email explaining an approach to it that isn't documented.

    Now you're approach to the users is perfectly valid, having to deal with the public on a day to day basis will drive anybody mad, and it's only the joys of helping the few users who actually appreciate your work that keep you going.

    Since you aren't going to go bankrupt if say 10% of the users say screw it with your software, and even perhaps run around forums like 5 year olds crying about how daddy spanked them and took away their toys. If anything its losing these users that is saving you money, since obviously with your family, your career, etc, you don't have a great deal of time to invest in holding everybody's hands just because they are too stubborn and needy to get up and try to walk on their own.

    Like you've previously said, we're all newbs at one time, and if not most of the time, we can't excel at everything we do, but we can surely try to make the effort to at least comprehend what we are doing, and gain understanding in the area of question. There are far too many people these days who simply believe that they are owed some kind of debt, in this case for using your software.

    This being a non-profit application, having fewer users and a much smaller user base would actually benefit you, since growth only benefits persons or organizations focused around monetary gains. The only positives in my humble opinion I can see for a free application, is the satisfaction that your software has such a spread audience, and perhaps that maybe 1 out of 1000 users who pick up your software and use it, can input something beneficial for your end, and for the software.

    I don't post around much, as there is really no need unless it's simply trying to help somebody with a question, even when I do that there seems to be no real interest in the solution, rather crying about why it doesn't work out of the box in the first place, and gathering the attention of many to compound a problem which was never really that.

    Banning users, telling them to the read the manual (in whatever shape or form), linking them to faqs, even telling them they are idiots sometimes, is perfectly acceptable behaviour. Unfortunately as sad as it is true, fewer and fewer people appreciate the genuine assistance of a developer. Where it was a long time ago, it was almost impossible to get hold of a software dev, back when the internet was young in the 90s. You would jump for joy if the developer took the time for you the user (a nobody), to assist you. Now its the complete opposite, developers want to do the right thing, and help the users experience and sit down with them to help rectify problems. But now the end user has simply no appreciation of how much time is involved in gathering information, formatting it, even laying out a response that they can understand. Everything should take no time at all, and their time is worth more than the developers (who is giving up their time which is probably worth 100 fold) and when it takes longer they throw a hissy tantrum like the world is treating them unfairly.

    Good job with everything Unwinder, your documentation and responses are top notch, you're approach at dealing with users is satisfactory (you can't make everybody happy after all?), and the fact that you even sit here to fire out rebuttals to previous posts shows simply how much you do care about the end user, and how much it means to you to see them satisfied (tough love is the only kind of love most people understand).
     
  12. Unwinder

    Unwinder Moderator Staff Member

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    That's really interesting example, thanks a lot. Honestly, I don't think that locating desired entry in power user is a weak spot of this chain, because I can recall a lot of "how do I increase clock limits?" questions, but I can hardly recall at least 3 "where do I find MaxClockLimit?" question, which means that most of people stop before this step, not on it.
    But anyway simplifying the process of finding a value in Power User tab is an interesting and important thing for sure. About a month ago there was simple suggestion to add an ability of searching the value by name in Power User tab, shich sounds as good solution of this problem for me. I'm still thinking about the most convenient way of implementing it.
     
  13. mikeyakame

    mikeyakame Master Guru

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    Might I suggest an idea in regards to that. Rather than actually having a search feature for the registry key entries, take a poll of which power features the users would find the most convenient to have available in either say an advanced tab in the low level graphics settings, or even a button in the window where the clock sliders are, labeled something like "Clock slider limits", and that brings up a window with, lower and upper limits for each clock slider, rop, shader & memory.

    In this window perhaps you could use text boxes, to enter the lower and upper limits for each slider, and select which ones you want to modify by simply ticking the corresponding radio box. These could point to the registry keys in the Power Users tab.

    This could be a much simpler approach (not sure from a coding POV), rather than having the reg key database open to searches, and users changing the wrong things.
     
  14. Capt Proton

    Capt Proton Member Guru

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    If this is the norm for this type of software, then my humble apologies. Maybe what could be suggested is for people to copy and paste all of the info into one Word document, and then search for key phrases.
    I have bashed my head here a number of times, and received the "rude" responses, not just from Unwinder. I can guarantee you that I am not stupid, nor do I have a complete lack of understanding of technology. Yet, I found it very difficult to come to terms with what folks were trying to say. The reason for this is, more than likely, is that the inner workings, terms, and phraseology necessary to completely understand how graphics cards work is far beyond the vast majority of people. I think that any approach based on an assumption that people trying to use this program have a good solid background in the technology is far too large an expectation. If these are the only people envisioned to be using this program, maybe there has to be a thresh hold knowledge test before admittance to the forum is approved.
     
  15. Kakaru2

    Kakaru2 Master Guru

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    And here you've touched a very true spot. I kind of gave up of actively posting in here about the same time that the interesting discussions we used to have in the early days of RivaTuner were completely overshadowed by all the "How do I do this NOW?" stuff.
    RT is a great program and you're a special guy Alexey, but for your own sake and from my experience get some distance - in time you'll se it's the best decision one can take.
     

  16. Truthteller

    Truthteller New Member

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    Here's the problem Alex!

    The problem, is that You have created a fantastic program, that many many users love. You've become a 'Celebrity' and have adopted the 'celebrity' attitude. It's an attitude developed through time, because of you accomplishment RT and the overwhelming ass kissing your followers have given You since your arrival to Guru in 2000. Go back and read some of your post Alex in 2000, not just here at the Guru website but others. You've changed, perhaps partially due to impatience, but mostly becuase of your stature! This is a controlled action. -----> Habbits (mild rudeness) turn into Charactersitcs, which then develop into your personality. The only way for this to get fixed is for You Alex to change it.

    Bottom line, you're a rude programmer. The only thing that distinguishes You from others is your popularity through your program RT. You're a very bright person Alex, You need not try impress us with your ingenuity by flaming, belittling people on the web, fact is, You're just an every day programmer like the rest of us, You just happen to do it free, and have gotten the notice, no thanks to you, but to Guru 3d's staff.

    I personally believe Guru has contacted You about your attitude and think you should receive this as a wake up call. I'd suggest spending more time on your poor poor attitude, and less on the revision of RT 2.06 because right now, when you die of old age, You'll be remembered as the ******* that created RT. If that's what You want, enjoy. Personally I think You code like a rookie! I'd like nothing better than to see RT flushed!

    Thanks =)
     
  17. Grandpa01

    Grandpa01 New Member

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    Hey look a troll. And a jelious one at that.
     
  18. Capt Proton

    Capt Proton Member Guru

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    Truthteller
    You need some lessons in diplomacy, not to mention grammar. Posts of this nature are not helpful.
     
  19. ogheeren

    ogheeren Master Guru

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    You are right, but truthteller is not totally wrong either. At least he is more back to topic than many others here. I thought we were speaking of behaviours of moderators and users concerning rt, now we started about rt's userinterface, some ***kicking and otherwise ***licking. I can not stop the feeling that unwinder started this thread to get that "no grandmaster, please don't close this forum, we are so greatfull!".
    By the way, I'm greatfull for rt, not for your "work" in this forum.
     
  20. Unwinder

    Unwinder Moderator Staff Member

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    Guys, you've missed the point: we've found the solution a few pages ago and I no longer do my useless "work" in the forums and no longer annoy you with my rudeness. That's exactly what you wanted to see, the forum is no longer moderated and life of the forum entirely depends on each of you right now.
    Then maybe you can finally start showing everyone how to do this forum "work" properly? Yes, I've failed to do it because I'm just a selfish rude guy with oversized ego and I've created the thread just to get that "no grandmaster, please don't close this forum, we are so greatfull!" according to your oppinions. That's sad for me to read it, but no problem, I can live with that. But maybe you can just start implementing your "If I were supporting the tool, I woud do it correctly" stories into real forum life? ;)
     
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