Do you think this forum needs to be closed?

Discussion in 'RivaTuner Advanced Discussion forum' started by Unwinder, Oct 23, 2007.

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  1. Warl0rd

    Warl0rd Member Guru

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    Ok, let me share what I think.
    Its undeniable that alot new ppl come here and post basic questions over and over again. But maybe you should ask:

    Why does it happen?
    Does it happen in other software forum (i.e. AtiTrayTool)?
    Is that a global problem or its only a problem here, if so why?

    Lets try to put this into a context, we all know that this piece of software is complex tool and it wasn't initially designed to be used by newbs, its was made to be used by expert users to help them OC their cards and change those hidden driver features.
    Back on the days OC was considered dangerous and was only done by a minority, and they knew how things worked and what they were trying to do, so it was just a mater of figuring out where that option was in the tool. Nowadays we see boards shipped OCed, so ppl aren't scared by it anymore, they want to do it themselfs.

    Now thats where i think the problem begins. Rivatuner has evolved over time, but the GUI design has been kept back from the days where it was used my the minority that knew how it worked. Now you have new guys trying to do basic things with a complex and powerful user interface, things like OCing the shaders isn't forthcoming to a newb, its not just scrolling a marker, you have to select the proper 2D/3D profile, scroll it, select other profile, scroll, save profile, apply profile at windows startup, check the monitoring, manually enable background monitoring, etc not to mention that things work differently from XP to Vista. There are a few tools out there that have basic interface, like mobo OC programs, you can OC on the BIOS with all the options or just use the program and scroll a single bar on windows...for newbs its all they need...

    So yeah rivatuner is hard for the newbs :(

    The documentation also seems to be a problem...
    I'm not saying the documentation is bad, not at all, but the way to use the documentation isn't easy for newbs. They aren't used to right click a place to check what it does! I can't remember any other program that works that way...And where is it displayed that there is a help by right clicking something?
    Ppl are used to have a help menu, maybe it would be as simple as having a Help tab with some tutorials (with images) either built in or pointing to a site ;)

    Now lets look at this forum, here things seem to work different from other forums aswell. When ppl go to a forum searching for help the 1st thing they do is look top down, so they get the sticky threads 1st. It can't be too much threads or they will stop reading and will simply search or create a new thread. Here we have tons of sticky threads that besides a couple don't provide any helpful information to a newb...usefull threads:
    -Find Rivatuner guides here (the 1st post should contain all the links)
    -RivaTuner FAQ (huge lol isn't updated since 2005!!!)
    IMO all the other threads either are issues fixed with the new releases or isn't relevant info for newbs.
    Alot of ppl complain about your mod actions, yes many times you aren't helpful at all, so perhaps you should think why do you even bother posting if your not gonna help that person to solve the problem, you only end up irritating him, so perhaps it would be better to just leave him without answer, someone else will eventually help him or he will end up figuring out by himself...

    So should this forum be closed? i don't think so, but i do think things should change!
    -make rivatuner GUI more intuitive for newbs (maybe a basic and a advanced interface), make the documentation more accessible (help tab), add tutorials, clean up and update sticky threads (specially the FAQ one), create subforums and nominate mods if needed.

    i.e. making things more easy for newbs and they will make your life easier aswell ;)

    and btw once again thanks for all your work on this great tool :)

    PS: and the main page could also be changed a bit ;)
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2007
  2. Unwinder

    Unwinder Moderator Staff Member

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    Search ignoring is a global problem of any frequently visited software/hardware forum. And that's the problem that kills many freeware projects or turns them into shareware/donationware ones. I definitively don’t want to see that the same thing is happening with RT, that’s why I’m trying to cut off the problem (support) completely instead of going that way.
    In my understanding that’s just a question of user base size. E.g. when RT had just a few thousands downloads during the first months of its life in 2000 I enjoyed this forum because the people were asking really interesting things here. Now with roughly 6.500.000 downloads interesting posts simply drown into numerous “How do I overclock my shaderz” and similar useless stuff. I can recall 2 (!!!) really interesting original questions posted here since v2.05 launch (one was related to glitches in OGL with VSync enabled, second one about OSD invisibility in DX10 mode when AA is enabled). The rest thousand of questions can be easily treated as useless spam.

    To be honest I'm shocked to read it. Please tell me that it is a bad joke. If modern overclockers think this way, I don't even know what to say and can only recommend starting from basic OS usage lessons before getting deeper into system tuning. Context sensitive help accessible by right-clicking desired option is de-facto standard offered by MS for any system software including OS itself. For example, try to go into display properties and right-click something there.

    Sorry, but it will never materialize. Simplified newbie oriented UI will hurt interests of the primary targeted RT's user base, i.e. power users (including myself, as I develop it to satisfy my personal hardware tuning needs too). Besides my primary job and RT I design/develop a few other projects including totally simple o/c tools oriented on complete o/c rookies, allowing overclocking hardware with just a single click (e.g. this one).
    However, I'll never convert RT into similar big shiny skinned thing making any newbie happy with extremely simple interface requiring him to click just a single button for automated overclocking. RivaTuner is, was and will be developed to provide power users maximum flexibility and full control over hardware. And those who find RT too hard for understanding simple chosen wrong tool. The tool complexity will actually increase, not decrease, because amount of features already overcame 300 and it is constantly growing up. So you may expect changes in the forum (limited / stopped support) but not in RT itself.

    Do you really believe in magic and think that you see something special, that it will really force the newbies to read and use search? Here is just a short story, there were a lof ot “change … and we will read it for sure” suggestions here during 7 years of RT’s lifetime. Just a few of them:

    1) Add context help system to RT and it will read it. Done. Didn’t help.
    2) Add FAQ to the distributive and we’ll read it. Done. Didn’t help.
    3) Convert FAQ and revision history from plain HTML to compressed HTML format, so we could use context sensitive search functions. Done. Didn’t help.
    4) Translate documentation and context help system because we completely don’t understand English. Done. Didn’t help. The most complete localization for RT is Russian one, however Russian techsupport forums are just completely closed now because localization absolutely didn't affect amount of newbie questions there.

    Reality is different and sad: almost nobody EVER try to read ANYTHING before asking. Just a small group of people read, others are searching for reasons explaining why they don’t read. Almost every day you can see a posting, with the same contents like the previous (!!!) one. That’s even not the thing user have to search for. That’s the thing the users sees right in front of his nose when he is submitting his problem in the forum.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2007
  3. Solinari

    Solinari Ancient Guru

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    Well there's your answer right there, if you really believe that then yes, you should close the forum. Then redirect it to some other places where the n0000000000000000000bs can noob amongst themselves about their noob questions and noob answers.

    I can understand your frustration, i can, but i can't understand you replying to these so called a thousand time asked noob questions with what are frankly, insults and ridicule. I am sure it is nothing personal, it can't be, but it is what it is and i think if you made a normal account and replied in other forums in the same manner, you would be banned.

    As andrescm said..

    ...I've seen many times posts of yours that seemed like you were waiting to shoot noobs with a sniper rifle on sight...

    From the first visit to this forum, i have to agree with that.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2007
  4. Unwinder

    Unwinder Moderator Staff Member

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    Honestly?
    Yes, I really absolutely beleive that 90% of postings is useless spam containing documented questions. But I also beleive that there are different people, whom I absolutely don't want to punish because of newbies, even if newbies are in majority. Just look a bit wider and see somebody else besides you and evil moderator who deadly insulted you by closing your fake bugreport thread.
     

  5. Amigafan35

    Amigafan35 Master Guru

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    After lurking around the Guru3D forums for years, I just had to create an account as I agree 110% percent with what Garegaupa said.

    I am one to RTFM, or to search on google if I have a lil trouble figuring out how to do something in RT, which I've had to do a few times, but some people just wont be able to grasp it & so will end up asking questions.

    But I wouldn't be surprised if alot of people are put off even posting in this forum anyway, as they wouldn't appreciate being called a noob just because they choose to post a question, in a forum!!!!
     
  6. Solinari

    Solinari Ancient Guru

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    It wasn't a bug report, i was asking if it was a bug, i didn't know. I wasn't insulted, i was stunned by your attitude and puzzled why you would respond with links when you could have easily told me the answer in the same breath (or sentence).

    I searched the forum, i looked at the FAQ, i didn't find any reference to this. I used the FAQ and search to find out how to get the slider enabled in the first place.

    As i said, i didn't ask nor expect you personally to respond, and i am still wondering why you did. The general feeling i am getting from this thread is, don't reply, let others answer it if you think it's beneath you.

    And if you really truly believe 90% of this forum is spam, then you have your answer. Personally, i would leave it open and let users help users, or in your eyes, the noobs help the noobs.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2007
  7. Unwinder

    Unwinder Moderator Staff Member

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    Probably just to teach you how to use software help system to avoid seeing similar question from you in future?
    The rest depends on your POV on the situation. You may quit it thinking "this bastard forced me to read something instead of giving direct answer" or "hey, I didn't know that there is built-in FAQ, but I know it now and I can find useful info there".
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2007
  8. Solinari

    Solinari Ancient Guru

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    Haha, nah i don't think you're a bastard and i do understand your frustration. I know it's nothing personal, and i do try to use help where ever possible.

    And hey, i didn't know there was a built in FAQ, i was referring to the forums FAQ and search when i mentioned it in my original post.

    I just think it would have been easier if you said something like, yes, you did miss something, it is here, and this is the reason. Or if you used a just a little bit of tact and pointed me in the right direction instead of making me feel like a tit.

    I would of said, thanks man, what a nice person. Perhaps it was the title of my thread with the word 'Bug' in it, in hindsight i probably shouldn't have used that word and simply asked the question.
     
  9. Unwinder

    Unwinder Moderator Staff Member

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    I just don't get it: why so many people are so afraid to be called a newbie? You just physically cannot be a guru in every expert area. We _all_ are noobs in some things, e.g. I'm complete noob in cars and absolutely cannot fix the engine myself. And there is absolutely nothing wrong if you don't know something, it doesn't mean that you're stupid, it just means that you've a new area which you can explore. We're humans and we've got nice ability of self improving and that's fine.
    With each release of RT I'm trying to jump over my current knowledge level and try to explore something new for me (i.e. some new GPU or some unexplored part of old GPU), and I find it really fun and useful for myself. And I'm really glad that I've some area where I'm noob and where I can dig something new. Or I'm just the only man here who like to study? ;)
     
  10. bug77

    bug77 Banned

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    I vote: give Unwinder authority to ban these guys outright.

    Seriously, if it's causing more trouble than it's worth, close the forum. You'll still be reachable through PM (an noobs won't find that :D )
     

  11. samov

    samov Master Guru

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    well... the only way to learn is to ask questions... i feel there should be some limit to the amount of stupid questions...

    You could impose a post count limitation... can't post in rivatuner if you do not have x number of posts... but there are post hunters for that...

    My personal opinion... you should make every new member pass a small test... so that if some1 joins and wants to post they should at least have basic-medium rivatuner knowledge.

    Maybe some "hired-help" would help... having 2-3 moderators help means less stress on you
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2007
  12. Warl0rd

    Warl0rd Member Guru

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    Yes i'm being honest, name a few programs you use besides windows itself that uses that... i can't remember any, (or to be honest) used it in any other program... it isn't intuitive, wonder why it was removed from vista? When searching for help I always automatically look for the help menu, its used in most programs and also the F1 for a compiled chm, maybe its just me thinking that way?!
    Fair enough :) I was just giving an example used by many advanced programs that also have a basic option for newbs (like nvidia drivers).
    1) it isn't intuitive
    2-3) Do we get prompted to read it after installation? Is it accessible thru rivatuner GUI? How good, clear and useful is the current CHM? Lets look at it :)
    Yes you have many info on the sensitive context help, but can it be accessed in the CHM? Nope! Lets do something basic, lets search for "overclock" or "overclocking". What do we get?
    -FAQ (i'll get there later on)
    -Features (just tell what the program can do and its not updated)
    -Known Issues: That can be usefull, but most will quit reading after 10 bullets, and since we all read top down, the 10 first bullets are old issues and they aren't probably the issue we are looking for, so my sugestion: Reorder the list, either reverse it (recent issues first) or order by interest (gathered from the forum), if you have 500 post asking how to make rivatuner work on x64, then make that one of the 1st bullets, and drop the "Detonator 21.xx on GeForce2 MX on Windows 9x" from 1st to last... Yes all the info is there now, but ppl are lazy...why not save them some time and put relevant info 1st? I'm sure you also appreciate when others do that to you;)
    -All the Revision history (come on, don't tell me you expect newbs to read the changelog since 2.0beta)

    Now lets search for something you have been talking about: "shaders"
    -FAQ
    -Revision history (again you cant expect a newb to read all the changelogs, and if he does, getting the new revisions 1st could also help...)

    But great its in the a FAQ, lets see what it says about shaders, i'm sure a newb will learn the basics there :)

    oops, "shaders" is only mentioned once and the Q is: "RivaTuner really shows changes in graphics processor's configuration on the main tab after using NVStrap, but I'd like to verify it with some other tool too. What software would you recommend?" Is that helpful for shaders OC?!

    And the whole FAQ is very hard to read, its a single page with Q: and A: all the rest is the same font and color and no visual help. Does it have info, hell yeah, is it easy to read? no! Its 23 pages of info and you have to scroll the damn 23 pages to find something! Do you truly expect newbs to have that work? We are both programmers we are used to open manual and browse thru hundreds of pages to find a function that do what we want and to understand how it works, but do you expect "normal" ppl to do that?
    Yes I understand that you target were OCers back on the days they were "nerds" that didn't mind doing that, but things changed man, your program is now used by "millions" and the majority doesn't have an extensive tech background and they don't really care about it, they want the games to run fast and they read somewhere that rivatuner would do that...

    4) Translate documentation is good, but would you expect it to work with just russian?! how many russian users you get on the forum? maybe other language would be more usefull like chinese, spanish, french, which is spoken more worldwide...

    You have most of the work done, almost everything is documented, which is rare in an app like this, and there are also good guides out there... unfortunately you have problems in passing all that info in a more intuitive way to users. Most of us would also get pised by seems a question which is answered in the documentation being asked over and over again, but that should also give you a hint that something is wrong in your side...looking how its done in other professional (payed) programs usually helps, they invest money and time in finding the right ways to help ppl. if their program help isn't working they will get their lines busy with users asking questions and that means wasting money with more employees. And in other payed programs forums you don't have the coders (you) answering the user questions, they have others (could be your trustful long time users) to do the job.
     
  13. F1refly

    F1refly Ancient Guru

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    Unwinder: your being stubborn, so take this as helpful insight and advice instead of negativity, your not getting it. us enthusiasts are roughly 1-5% of the pc population. the rest DO NOT CARE TO LEARN TECHNICALS. they WILL NOT learn how to better use the OS or anything with the computer. tweakers will want specifically told what to do to make it better, not learn anything else.

    if someone tried to force you to learn how to better operate the manual choke for your car to start instead of helping you put in an automatic choke on the carburator, which is what you really want....that would not make you feel abrasive?

    not the best analogy. here is how you help noob's if the answer has been mentioned....PROVIDE LINK OR DIRECT QUOTE. i copy and paste from lots of sources all the time, so dont you F*** dare tell me that takes you more time to do that than it does to post abrasive attitude,close the thread etc. judging by your responses to some of us, you took some time and did so in both more and less abrasive attitude. if you have a clue where the quote you need to copy is at, it takes just seconds.

    some of us like to help people with pc problems...you obviously dont so close this forum for gods sake if your going to be stubborn and take what we try to help you with as a negative attack.

    a positive attitude is not bred from negativity, if your abrasive so will everyone else.
     
  14. boogieman

    boogieman Ancient Guru

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    Thats Unwinders point, then they should not use RT and simply use some other tool.

    Frustrating for him too is the fact that people who do not research it and understand enough about it begin to bash it and say it's full of bugs. He has put a lot of his education and time into making this "baby" and he will feverishly protect it and I don't blame him. He has a technical reputation to protect.

    Also, once someone truly finds an issue, he's all over it like flies on sh11t trying to solve it. Can you say PB issue?
     
  15. Breathless

    Breathless Member Guru

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    100% agreed
     

  16. Unwinder

    Unwinder Moderator Staff Member

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    We were thinking about it with Hilbert about a month ago and we were close to doing that. But the idea was dropped, because not every 1-post guy is asking newbie question. And I really won't like to miss an important question or the real bugreport due to these limitations.
     
  17. Unwinder

    Unwinder Moderator Staff Member

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    Many of them: PowerStrip, ATI Tray Tools etc. Actually almost everything I ever used to access hardware. That's a system standard whenever you like it or not.

    If it were really intuitive and not needed, MS won't realize their mistake and won't return it with Vista updates.

    You do feel a difference between help file and context sensitive help system? Help file is just a stuructured document which you've to read and browse manually.
    Context sensitive help system is aimed to quickly display help page for desired UI element only. The most standartized ways of doing that are right-clicking desired control and clicking [?] button in window caption if you don't like right-clicking so much.

    Yes for both questions. Yes, you do get promoted to read CHM file right after installation. There is an option (enabled by default, btw) allowing you to display it right after installing RT. 90% of users simply untick it to start tweaking the system to death faster and many simply forget about it completely. And yes, it is accessible trough RT GUI. There are my email and ICQ contact icons in "Links" tab. When you click them, RT asks you if you tried to find answer in FAQ and warns you that I'll ignore any email/ICQ questions, which were already discussed there. If you'll honestly answer "NO", RT opens and displays CHM for you. If you'll answer "YES, I'VE READ IT", you'll be allowed to submit a question via email/ICQ.
    Now the statistics: almost all users lie and answer YES.

    Of course not, if I were expecting to work with Russians only, I won't initially make English UI for RT. According to my stats RT has just about 5% of users speaking in Russian. But that's the only language I know. So I've showed an example of Russian localization just as an example of "monkey job", which still doesn't force users to read anything even if they get what they demand.

    Are you really seriously trying to compare RT support with payed forums support? That's not fun at all. Even sad, to be honest.
    After reading such things sometimes I have a strong feeling that keeping software freeware and available for everybody was the biggest mistake I've made.
     
  18. Warl0rd

    Warl0rd Member Guru

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    But those are programs also used to OC, you can't expect newbs to have experience with that programs already... I was asking for programs that use that kind of help which are used by newbs, i mean programs like file compressors, browsers, messengers, photo manipulation programs, media players, anti virus, cd burning software, that the type of programs present on 90% of the computers, they follow the same standards regarding help system and like it or not, newbs are used to it.
    I'm not saying context sensitive is worst, what i'm saying it that it isn't intuitive and most ppl aren't used to it!
    It not present in Vista anymore, just try right clicking anywhere in the display properties... And even if it was that doesn't mean ppl use it...

    Now thats another great example of how intuitive you GUI is, instead of having a link or an explicit image saying HELP-FAQ-whatever, newbs have to find out that clicking "email-icq" will actually allow them to open the CHM! Of course you can say that the CHM was always available thru the program files->rivatuner menu, but thats just not the same thing is it...
    Its strange, you seem to understand that things aren't working out but you do refuse to accept "mea culpa" on it. You seem to want to impose to the whole world to think the way you do and the way you did is the best way. And maybe it is, but ppl don't see it that way and you can't expect to change the world alone when most of other software works differently...
    I'm probably saying some hard things that you don't like to read, but i'm not saying it just to put you down, when i point something i think is wrong at least i try to suggest how it can be changed to better... If you prefer i can just sftu.
     
  19. UnclePappi

    UnclePappi Banned

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    I'm afraid you are on to something here. Me myself when I find something I like I learn it inside out before I dive in. I even read game manuals before I play a game for the first time(gasp!). The truth of the matter though is that 90% of the population wants things fast and they want it NOW. Call it the ADHD generation or whatever but that's how it is. I'm sure you already know that though.

    Maybe you have a built-in IQ test and if user doesn't pass then RT locks itself up with 128-bit encryption. Lol yeah right then people would just cheat the test.

    I think a good FAQ would solve alot of probs.
     
  20. Andrés

    Andrés Ancient Guru

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    The FAQ is already there, the problem is that many are afraid of FAQs and think they bite :)
     
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