DirectX 12

Discussion in 'Videocards - AMD Radeon Drivers Section' started by trocio2, Mar 7, 2014.

  1. The Mac

    The Mac Ancient Guru

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    and yet no ones uses it.

    there are some other advantages to mantel such as asynchonous memory pipelines (ability to use ALL memory in crossfire, not just 1/2)

    Mind you, Dice isnt using it in BF4, just the usual AFR which of couse can only use duplicated memory. But perhaps someone will figure out how to implement it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2014
  2. Anarion

    Anarion Ancient Guru

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    Because there hasn't been extensions that work on all GPUs. Each vendor had their own extensions, that's apparently about to change.
     
  3. The Mac

    The Mac Ancient Guru

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    sounds great, if its true, im all for new stuff.

    However due to the timing of all this, i have a feeling its just damage control, and we wont see any of this implemented for at least 18 months....

    If nothing else, mantel has been successful in lighting a fire under MS' and Chonos' ass...

    Which is fine with me.
     
  4. Sdar

    Sdar Member

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    No one uses it... but the reason is hilarious, GPU vendors thought that cause there's almost no games using opengl they could just pass with a ****ty Opengl implementation... so any devs thinking in use Opengl are going to run away as soon as they see how poorly implemented opengl was along some gpu vendors.

    One nice example is ANGLE (almost native graphics layer engine) used in some web browsers:

    That is ****ing dumb why does someone need to take some program translate all the calls in real time (causing overhead) to another api (that is known to have more overhead than opengl)... well we can read some more and here is the reason:

    So, despite native webgl/Opengl ES run faster when there's no bugs in the driver side, to make it work with all the GPU's, they have to translate the calls to Dx...

    In my opinion angle never should have exist, the drivers are not going to be fixed if anytime someone hit a bug looks for a way to workaround despite the loss of functionality and performance. (There's a lot of things that angle can't do yet, so once again if you are creating something with webGL you must try to make it work with angle or drop all Chrome and Firefox users in windows platforms).


    And as a opposite example.. when steam was "porting" Left4dead 2 to linux they don't want to rewrite all the Dx stuff... so they use an abstraction layer that translates Direct3D calls to OpenGL calls.

    So that should cause some performance loss... but with the same hardware:
    Intel Core i7 3930k
    NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680
    32 GB RAM

    They managed to run left4dead 2 at 315 FPS on linux, 303.4 FPS on windows (Using Opengl) and 270.6 FPS on windows (using DirectX) and i'm pretty sure that they're using just Opengl 2.x
     

  5. dell7520user

    dell7520user Banned

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    left4dead can give more more fps when linux kernel optimized. they can compile kernel for new cpus they can tweak lots of option.

    opengl best for good coder. because open source. coder can touch like everything and can support opengl.

    but there is microsoft trying to control all. if directx building work for used opengl im thinking opengl was far better. opengl-es realy succes on weak tablet gpus.

    there is only lastest gpus supporting direct x11.2. there is no lots of dx11.2 game. and they are talking about dx 12.

    if nivida and amd can build good apis. it will better than microsofts. microsoft not build gpu but trying to control all.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2014
  6. Sdar

    Sdar Member

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    Well, if all the vendors could just work together a lot of extensions and changes could be made to Opengl to reduce Overhead and get better use of the Gpu's potential... I'm not sure if that is what we're going to see in march 20... but sure thing the three major gpu vendors are going to be there (Amd, Intel and Nvidia)
     
  7. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Ancient Guru

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    Well, GCN 1.0 & 1.1 are pretty versatile and extensible. So some may get surprised that they may become DX12 compliant in time.

    But fun begins with GCN 2.0 which should be mayor game changer as much as Volta on nVidia Side. But I believe GCN 2.0 will be here with Pirate Islands and that is around corner.

    AMD's cookbook for late 2014, early 2015 looks crazy as hell, because their tech was waiting long enough for other companies to bring little pieces of technology to table and it's nearly here.
     
  8. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Ancient Guru

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    Not interested in what intel, AMD and nVidia gonna say there at all as I already know.

    What is interesting to me is Qualcomm as they make little bugs with DX 9c. Have DX11 in cookbook and in time we may have nice addition to x86 GPU segment.
    I really want to know what they may say or hint.
     
  9. GhostXL

    GhostXL Ancient Guru

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    That is what I said really. Developers will make the call in the end.
     
  10. sykozis

    sykozis Ancient Guru

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    There's already more games for Android than there are for SteamOS.....

    We're not saying the same thing.... I don't see where developers really have any say in it....other than trying to convince NVidia to support Mantle.
     

  11. GhostXL

    GhostXL Ancient Guru

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    They have a lot of say in it. That is why DX9 is still used more than DX11 today.

    A developer will use what path they want to in a game.
     
  12. Lumaan

    Lumaan Member

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    And that's Xbox360 and PS3 doing (aka console game's), so with the new Xbox One and PS4 running on custom AMD GPU's of the Graphics Core Next (GCN) architecture and Mantle out, dev's might push for Mantle.
     
  13. Spets

    Spets Ancient Guru

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    That won't happen, consoles already use close to metal API's. One of the reasons DirectX 12 is going to be doing it is because the XboxOne already has that feature with DX11.x
     
  14. JulesCools

    JulesCools Banned

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    I'm seeing that Intel and NVIDIA have an interest in getting good performance from game ports that come from AMD based console ports to PC. It's in all three companies' interest to work together right now to get good quality games on the pc platform, if this turns into an API war then it will hurt them all. They might plan on using an updated OpenGL with lower overhead, or maybe they'll agree to work with M$ to get DX12 working properly on all three platforms.
     
  15. RzrTrek

    RzrTrek Ancient Guru

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    If Microsoft think they'll get away with another (upgrade to Windows 8 in order for the end-user to get the latest DirectX) they will lose a lot of customers.
     

  16. DrunkenDonkey

    DrunkenDonkey Master Guru

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    And customers will go where? Still the majority of the games support DX9 on an OS that is released 13 years ago, to get the latest effects you need just the 7 years old vista, that pretty much covers it, the rest are nice goodies, but thats all. I don't see why people don't whine that car companies release new model, instead of backporting new features to the old models (up to 13 years, for free ofc), it is same thing, m$ is not a charity company, it is there to make profit and it is totally normal the new version to have something that makes you think about buying it. Personally I find it strange that they DO backport some stuff like new DX versions to older ones.
     
  17. Redemption80

    Redemption80 Ancient Guru

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    Exactly, it's all empty threats.

    The worst they can do is just not pay for any new OS, which is probably what they were going to do anyway, and we all know MS would rather people pirated it then not use it at all.

    I don't see PC gamers giving up PC gaming and buying a PS4 rather than downloading or even buying a new OS.

    I'm happy if this does turn out to be good, Mantle was clearly better than DX11, but starting again with a new api was just never going to work, unfortunately AMD were 5-10 years late, and developers are far more likely to patch in DX12 support than they are Mantle.
     
  18. sykozis

    sykozis Ancient Guru

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    The only real alternative for gaming are Xbox and Playstation. Some customers may give up on Windows for gaming, but very few will actually migrate from it to Linux or Mac. Too many users focus on familiarity for those few to have any real impact on MS.

    Of course, I find it funny that people expect MS to backport all the "new" features released with a new version of Windows, for free...yet don't expect the same to be done for every other product they buy.
     
  19. Redemption80

    Redemption80 Ancient Guru

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    I find that funny as well, what i find even more amusing is what people tend to threaten.

    Nonsense like if DX12 needs W9 and doesn't work on W7 then they won't use it and will stick with W7.
    So if it works with W7 then they will stick 7, but if it doesn't then they will also stick with 7.

    There is no threat there, either way they will do nothing.
     
  20. leszy

    leszy Master Guru

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    This is good news for AMD. Current Mantle implementation in games does not use all of its features, in order to not discourage users of other cards (e.g. allowing for ten time more objects in games like Star Citizen, what we can suppose after seeing Star Swarm demo). The introduction of DX12, will eliminate this effect. Anyway, DX12 support will require you to purchase a new card - biggest argument of Mantle opponents will fall. The new AMD cards will support both DX12 and Mantle, the competition will be only supporting DX - it is a huge AMD advantage over other manufacturers.

    edited:
    It is a desperate attempt of Microsoft, to save the dominance in the PC gaming market. Nvidia is in this game just a pawn, risked a lot by rejecting support Mantle.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2014

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