Direct-X 12 will destroy PC gaming. This is the most important tech article ever

Discussion in 'Videocards - AMD Radeon Drivers Section' started by BradleyW, Mar 1, 2016.

  1. janos666

    janos666 Master Guru

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    I am not surprised at all. AMD had always been a devoted MS "standard" follower in questions like this (even if it's merely a proprietary guideline which actually allows or even non-officially but explicitly supports deviations as other parties see fit).

    nVidia always tried to (and usually managed to) allow the users to force these things (V-sync, MSAA, AF, prerender frame limit, etc) through driver settings even if MS was pragmatically against it (their opinion is that game engines should be in full control of these things and "hacks" should be avoided - which would be fine in a perfect word) while AMD loved to follow MS guidelines and restrict driver overrides as much as possible (I think it's also convenient despite their overall believes).

    In other words, nVidia always cared more about the actual reality from the user's perspective while AMD preferred to pursue idealistic future outlooks.

    nVidia never thought twice before allowing the user to force certain things from the driver when reality proved that actual games lack the corresponding settings while disregarding the present.

    AMD always hesitated for month or years despite the constant demand from the users to acknowledge actual reality rather than fixing their views on idealized future outlooks and they even dared to go as far as saying that restricting these "hacks" is necessary in order to motivate game developers into providing these settings themselves in future games/patches which might never happen, thus punishing their customers in the present days (which could last for years and there is no guarantee it will ever be resolved despite these actions).
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2016
  2. fantaskarsef

    fantaskarsef Ancient Guru

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    Most stupid thing I've read today (not you but that statement from AMD if it's true).
     
  3. Noisiv

    Noisiv Ancient Guru

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    AMD was first to brake D3D11 LOD bias,
    they ****ed around FP16 demotion,
    and with aniso optimizations countless times during HD5000/6000,
    AMD never implemented multi threading...

    other than that... LOL :D

    But I would agree -> this is a very important article
     
  4. janos666

    janos666 Master Guru

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    Sorry, I wasn't clear. I obviously meant "whenever it was convenient for them" (whenever it meant that they didn't have to come up with workarounds or could otherwise save any amount of work).
     

  5. Alessio1989

    Alessio1989 Maha Guru

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    Driver command lists (which is not a true multi-threading support like in low-overhead APIs) have been always an optional feature of DirectX 11. Driver command lists were a nice feature, unfortunately they never works well due the API design. NV is the only IHV supporting driver command lists on DX11, however most of multi-threading is driver-implicit (this means driver command lists usually do not improve performance so much even on NV GPUs). All IHVs also did a lot of "driver magic" to enhance implicit driver multi-threading. Unfortunately all this "driver magic" has a CPU cost. It would be interesting to see how all GPUs behaves with mid- and low- tier CPUs, unfortunately tech sites usually run all games on the last high-end CPU available on the market.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2016
  6. PrMinisterGR

    PrMinisterGR Ancient Guru

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    This has been the sad truth at least since the 7000 series appeared. Not being able to force vsync/triple buffering on AMD is a f*cking CURSE.

    This has changed since the 7000 series really (since more or less they had to cooperate with Microsoft for the XboxOne). As for DX11 multithreading, it was optional, hence never implemented. NVIDIA is doing something else with their driver, and it's out of spec, whatever it is. It's not command lists that give them that performance boost.

    NVIDIA GPUs seem to handle things much better with lower-end CPUs, and that's that pretty much.
     
  7. BradleyW

    BradleyW Master Guru

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    I urge everyone to ask about DX12's limitations here:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/48e8rl/radeon_technologies_group_qa_is_happening_here_on/

    Ask AMD directly!




    Here is my run down of DX12

    1) 60 FPS cap
    2) 60Hz forced
    3) Gsync and FreeSync not supported
    4) Windowed mode is forced (store only)
    5) .EXE encrypted (store only)
    6) No true access to game files (store only)
    7) Little to no 21:9 or multi monitor support (store only)
    8) 3rd Party FPS readers and FPS limiters won't work (For most of the titles)
    9) No .ini modding (store only)
    10) No reshade support
    11) No SweetFX support
    12) Limited key binding (store only)
    13) Limited driver intervention due to App encryption (store only)
    14) Slower roll out of patches (as they must pass WHQL per patch - store only)
    15) Poorer support for mGPU configurations
    16) At the mercy of Developers to implement desired features.

    Conclusion, your PC will be an overly expensive XBOX ONE with a plethora of technical issues.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2016
  8. isidore

    isidore Ancient Guru

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    LOL i think you are on to something. Seeing how they are pushing more and more exclusive xbox games to PC i wonder if they don't intend to retire xbox and make what exactly you said. This would be the most daring thing to push and if this happens i see a massive migration to Linux.(At least i will, also will game only on my PS4).
     
  9. Alessio1989

    Alessio1989 Maha Guru

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    1) False. The frame are actually computed but discarded on the presentation, this is different from v-sync vere frames are not computed at all. This also does not happen in fullscreen immediate, but looks like there is a driver bug in current AMD drivers.
    2) False. It's desktop refresh synchronized, for window and borderless maximized window scenarios is correct behaviour as always as been (though there are some differences: the first is handled by DWM, the second bypass DWM with dFlip or iFlip)
    3) They will be supported on fullscreen immediate mode, of course HIV need to update their drivers. Currently there are major issues on drivers side then supporting Adaptive-sync/G-sync on the very few games released so far.
    4) 5) Not related to DirectX 12
    6) You can access game files after changing folder permission, folder access is denied by default due security reasons, and NOT DirectX 12 related. If developers want to give some kind of mode/save direct access they can store those files in user folders.
    7) Not related to DirectX 12, on WStore developers can add custom resolution setting by-hand writing XAML files.
    8) Not related to DirectX 12, such application need to be updated to handle new compositing and presentation scenarios.
    9) Not related to DirectX 12, moreover INI files for store settings is not a UNO rule, a lot of application to not use .ini files at all.
    10) 11) Like #8
    12) Not related to DirectX 12.
    13) Not related to DirectX 12, and this is fake, store application can be target by driver, moreover low-overhead APIs do not allow the same driver interference like high-overhead APIs, this is a design feature of all low-overhead APIs (DirectX 12, Vulkan, Mantle, PS3 and PS4 low-level APIs).
    14) Not related to DirectX 12, and there is not such thing like WHQL in WStore, WHQL testing is related to driver for Windows Update distribution. Most of the test involved on WStore are to analyze API usage, especially on the first time submission, and the time taken is related to the code and binary changes.
    15) Not related to DirectX 12 but to API exposed to WStore, this will change in a future update, I am not aware of an ETA. This also should not a problem for people that do not want to buy games on WStore like you (-:
    16) Not related to DirectX 12, and false.

    All this is no related to AMD except current driver behaviour in fullscreen immediate mode.

    Your are completely wrong.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2016
  10. PrMinisterGR

    PrMinisterGR Ancient Guru

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    The frames are calculated but discarded. There is no cap. There is no 60Hz limit, the "limit" is the refresh rate of the monitor.

    That's an issue with how AMD and NVIDIA are implementing them. Since FreeSync is a VESA standard, I see it getting implemented faster, if it's not already. Someone with a Freesync monitor should be able to tell us.

    All these are store problems. They have NOTHING to do with DX12. The Windows Store is neither the only source of DX12 games, neither the only source of games in general. It is the main source of MICROSOFT PARTNERED games. The solution is simple, DON'T buy from the store until these issues are resolved.

    All these are "issues" because nobody has sat down to write the interjection DLL for DX12/Vulkan yet. This will happen in time, as it has happened for all previous APIs.

    DX12 actually exposes some much better mGPU implementations, and it INCLUDES what you already know as SLi/CFX. Not only you get the same, there is even the option for more and better, like SFR. As for the last point, you have always been, I don't know how is that a revelation.

    If you buy stuff from the store in its current condition, you get what you deserve. That has nothing to do with DX12 as an API though. Since that idiot wrote that Forbes article everybody seems to be confusing the Windows Store with DX12. I am using DX12 right now on Dolphin and it's awesome, thank you very much.
     

  11. ObscureangelPT

    ObscureangelPT Master Guru

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    My question is, imagine that i am playing at 90FPS a game, in a 60HZ monitor.

    So 30fps are discarded all the time, what input lag do i gonna have?
    16.6ms of the 60FPS or the equivalent for 90FPS?
     
  12. Spartan

    Spartan Master Guru

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    My PC is already an "overly expensive XBOX ONE" under dx11. :p
     
  13. PrMinisterGR

    PrMinisterGR Ancient Guru

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    Let me quote Alessio from another thread:
     
  14. OnnA

    OnnA Ancient Guru

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    Yes its the Future :infinity:

    OMG what a BS, of course on the nV.PER ;-)
    This site is strongly $upported by nV to spread FUD.

    But untli Volta release they will de-courage for DX12/Vulcan etc.
    But After Volta release (with Async S. & full DX12 etc.) they will change :puke2:

    Why nMilk asked Nixxes for cut-off the DX12/11.3 Features in Rot Tomb Raider?
    They don't care about DX12/Vulcan Features at all, cuz they don't support it Fully yet, and Old Gen 9xx must sell ($$$$$$ Yes it's Crafted for Old DX11 API and Games)

    Here is proof why -> Rise of the Tomb Raider PC vs Xbox One

    Meanwhile:
    Xbox Showcases Stellar Spring Games Lineup for Xbox One and Windows 10

    "DirectX 12 Showcase:
    Rise of the Tomb Raider, Ashes of the Singularity, King of WushuSquare Enix, Snail, and Stardock showcased their latest DirectX 12 enhancements for Rise of the Tomb Raider, King of Wushu, and Ashes of the Singularity on Origin PCs, iBUYPOWER Revolt 2, and Maingear PCs.
    Ashes of the Singularity is taking advantage the DirectX 12 multi-adapter technology, allowing PCs to use multiple GPUs, even from different manufacturers.
    Rise of the Tomb Raider was playable for the first time at the Xbox Spring Showcase running DirectX 12 on Windows 10 PC."

    So now Nixxes have to re-enable cuted off DX12 Features in Rot Tomb Raider :) He He, bye bye nMilk Meant to be Milked and Gimped = good for Us.

    And don't tell us they will strongly support Vulcan (Mantle), no they will not. But of course they will tell you they will :eatme2:
    to sell moar of 9xx, and then -> will come Maxwell rev.3 so called Pascal, but it will not Pack new Features for Close to metal API's.
    Yes it's truth, sadly...
    After all why series 4xx/5xx don't Get Vulcan Driver support? and why Old ATI has it?


    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2016
  15. SimBy

    SimBy Member Guru

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    So we went from DX12 will save gaming and bring world peace to it's the evil incarnate.
     

  16. LM2014

    LM2014 Member Guru

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    The title of this post should be as follows:
    Nvidia destroys the industry of games and not DX12 nor Vulkan.
    While there is a company that pays developers to not support async shaders and dx12 in its entirety, players will be limited, the game will never evolve and we will be forever in the old api DX11.

    This is my opinion and I hope you do not take this the wrong way. :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2016
  17. BoMbY

    BoMbY Member Guru

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    Isn't that exactly what they are trying to achieve with these DX12 WDM requirements? The game hands over the frames to WDM, and WDM syncs it with the display refresh (to a maximum of the display refresh rate).
     
  18. PrMinisterGR

    PrMinisterGR Ancient Guru

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    One guy on Forbes did, and all the clickbait "journalists" on top.

    What does this have to do with NVIDIA?
     
  19. Tree Dude

    Tree Dude Master Guru

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    DX12 won't destroy PC gaming. MS thinking they know what is best for us will. Don't buy Windows Store games, maybe they will learn a thing or two.
     
  20. PrMinisterGR

    PrMinisterGR Ancient Guru

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    That's the point I'm trying to make. People confuse the API with the Windows Store. :bang:
     

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