Yeah - both Microsoft and Sony have excellent engineers that definitely know what they are doing. I'm sure the explanations they give after the fact are sometimes marketing based -- for example with Sony, I'm like 95% positive they went with lower CU, higher clocks for price reasons - but they aren't going to say that, so instead they'll either shift the marketing to things where they have wins like the storage speed - then talk about all the benefit that brings.. or they'll get crytek engineers to talk about how clocks can sometimes be better than more CUs lol.. or whatever spin they'll do. But my point is that they definitely had an engineering trade off. It's definitely not "Sony made bet on AMD failing to improve GPU". Mark Carney didn't sit there and go "heheh I bet $20 AMD can't even improve it's next generation GPU so I'm just going to clock the crap out of it" he 100% was fully briefed on the architecture, it's limitations, it's performance characteristics, etc and made an engineering trade-off decision - again most likely based on cost. And I never really cared for those positions. In the other thread he was essentially making the argument that Nvidia delayed it's next generation GPUs because they opened the Xbox and the performance density of AMD's chip surprised them. I just don't buy that at all. They know TSMC's specification. They know AMD's architecture roughly, way better than anyone on this forum. They know where AMD is going to take that architecture way better than anyone on this forum. They can probably literally simulate it on one of their cadence machines. Like the idea that Nvidia is totally blindsided by what essentially looks like a pretty normal performance/density jump, with no new marquee features is just amusing to me. Multiple people on this forum and other forums predicted the size and rough performance of what we could expect out of the Xbox, 6-8 months ago but somehow all the Nvidia engineers were surprised? So they delayed their architecture by ~2-4 months to do what exactly? And now Sony made an entire console using the architecture including supposedly customizing a CU for sound processing but they made a bet on whether AMD improved the GPU or not? Just seems like such a weird argument to make.