Computer diagnostic help

Discussion in 'General Hardware' started by EUOLA, May 4, 2013.

  1. EUOLA

    EUOLA Member

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    I need immediate help with these problems:

    The processor was undervolted to 1.25v for 3 years at stock, everything else is at stock. It started having problems corrupting an entire windows install. Then I ran OCCT and the system bluescreened. I raised the voltage to 1.3 and finally reverted to the factory default (auto setting on the motherboard). However, OCCT errors still persist (OCCT reports error in the cpu cores) But then I ran memtest86+ and the memory failed after a few seconds.
    At stock voltages, these problems don't show up during normal operation. Only in these benchmarks do they get flagged.

    Here are my questions:

    1. Right now I don't know if it is the MB or CPU or the ram that's bad. I don't have the means to test these parts on other systems.
    2. I'm not sure if it is still a good idea to "replace" any of the three components at this time. They are over 3 years old, typically operating for long hours on any day. (but at stock and processor undervolted) Now, the motherboard is an AM3 board, so that goes with the CPU. But I'm not sure if getting new RAM is the right thing to do as I can't tell if the MB or processor is damaging the ram.
    3. Just as a precaution, I want to know if this causes silent data corruption on all file transfers and files stored on active disks during this time. (like music/picture/video files) My uneducated belief on this tells me that there should be some data verification process going on under the hood the entire time? What concerns me is could there be corrupt files that can't get detected in any way because the files will simply play through the errors. (like any random 1s and 0s can be read as potential wav content)

    Thank you.
     
  2. Pill Monster

    Pill Monster Banned

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    Your ram is bad, it happens.....often. What brand do you have?

    Faulty ram can corrupt data being copied to or from disk but won't affect any files that aren't being accessed. Yes there is a verification proce3ss it's called CRC (Cyclic Redundancy Check).

    Memory doesn't all go bad at once btw, it may only be a small area that is damaged and no errors will occur until data is moved to these bad cells.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2013
  3. EUOLA

    EUOLA Member

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    Gskill. I'm using 4 sticks, don't know if that makes them more prone to failing. (other than the higher base number for randomness)

    Yes, I'm aware of CRC but I don't know if every file in a HDD has to be checked manually. (now it can be too late as there is no record of CRC values on creation kept)

    So at this time should I just buy new ram or replace the entire trio? Because I'm worried that the motherboard or processor's memory controller could be causing the memory to fail. (don't know if undervolting only the CPU by 0.15v can negatively affect other components, remember reading something about a maximum voltage delta for i7s)
     
  4. Pill Monster

    Pill Monster Banned

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    No the memory controller didn't damage it, nor did the CPU.
    Even brand new memory can die - in fact last month I had to RMA 2 sticks that failed after 1 week. Just replace it.

    And any files on your HDD should be fine
     

  5. EUOLA

    EUOLA Member

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    So undervolting the CPU is safe?
     
  6. Pill Monster

    Pill Monster Banned

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    Yep.
     
  7. Pill Monster

    Pill Monster Banned

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  8. EUOLA

    EUOLA Member

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    Ok, so I've already ordered the new ram.

    In general, what causes silent corruption of non-executable files that you wish to preserve? (like audio, pictures, video etc...) Is it safe to undervolt the cpu if your concern is to not get corrupt files? (BSODs and crashes while saving are not really silent)
     
  9. Pill Monster

    Pill Monster Banned

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    Strong magnets can destroy HDD data, or a short circuit.

    Best idea is to use an external drive for backing up important files and store it away somewhere like a closet when not in use. Hard drives last for years when looked after.

    And undervolting the CPU is perfectly safe, it will not corrupt any data. BSOD's don't really cause data loss either.

    Why are you so concerned might I ask?
     
  10. Hugo Sanchez

    Hugo Sanchez Banned

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    I'm just curious about your RAM, you didn't mentioned freq. you run it at?

    It is perfectly safe to undervolt CPU, HDD errors are mostly created by RAM or HDD itself. Would someone recommend undervolting your CPU? No. Best settings are usually settings set as "Auto" in BIOS. Anything other from that can cause effects that are not possible to measure with programs searching for errors.

    But as is said, data corruption is very unlikely to happen from undervolting CPU. No matter how high voltage set by BIOS seems to you, there is always a REASON for that, just keep that on mind.

    Your CPU IMC can cause RAM errors if you run it outside of specifications. Limit for your CPU is 1333Mhz, and in most cases, it is clever to run it at 1066Mhz even, no big gain or loss, and most adverse effects are gone. Same goes for any CPU, if IMC is specified for 1866Mhz for example, it is clever to run it bellow on conservative timings, it is not only because of hardware, but also because how software is written.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2013

  11. Pill Monster

    Pill Monster Banned

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    You're spreading misinformation again, all AM3 Phenom II's support 1600mhz ram!

    And no it is not clever to run DDR3 memory at a slower speed with tighter timings. This only applies to DDR/DDR2, if you're going to give advice at least stick to what you know.

    And fill out your specs.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2013
  12. Hugo Sanchez

    Hugo Sanchez Banned

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    http://www.amd.com/us/products/desktop/processors/phenom-ii/Pages/phenom-ii-key-architectural-features.aspx

    "Supports PC2-8500 (DDR2-1066); PC2-6400 (DDR2-800), PC2-5300 (DDR2-667), PC2-4200 (DDR2-533) or PC2-3200 (DDR2-400) SDRAM unbuffered DIMMs – AM2+"

    "Support for unregistered DIMMs up to PC2 8500(DDR2-1066MHz) and PC3 10600 (DDR3-1333MHz) – AM3"

    Without intention to go into unnecessary debate with you, can you explain how AMD spreading misinformation about it's own products?

    Oh, and yes, it is more then clever to run RAM modules on conservative timings and frequency, well bellow specifications.
     
  13. mbk1969

    mbk1969 Ancient Guru

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    Why?

    Offtopic: I`ve started ADL wraper. There is a chance it will be ready till next weekend.
     
  14. Pill Monster

    Pill Monster Banned

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    Right...next you'll be telling me that underclocking provides better performance than overclocking..

    AM3 CPU's unoffically support 1600mhz memory through overclocking, this is why the CPU/NB can be raised to 2400mhz without increasing the voltage.
    It's by design because in order to fully utilize DDR3 1600 the ideal NB speed is RAM /2 x3.

    This is even stated in AMD's own Dragon overclocking guide published by AMD.

    They can't list it on the website for liability reasons, just like they would never officially endorse overclocking Piledriver even though it is a major selling point.

    Great thanks very much. I really appreciate it. :)

    And to answer your question; because with DDR3 the latency is reduced more by increasing clock speed than by tightening the timings.

    For example, 1600 CL9 has less latency than 1066 CL7 or 800 Clx.

    http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/memory/display/ivy-bridge-ddr3_3.html
    http://www.anandtech.com/show/6372/...333-to-ddr32400-on-ivy-bridge-igp-with-gskill
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2013
  15. mbk1969

    mbk1969 Ancient Guru

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  16. yasamoka

    yasamoka Ancient Guru

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    This is akin to a suggestion that if your CPU runs at a stock frequency of 3GHz, it is more than clever to run it at lower than 3GHz.

    I mean...these are rated stock speeds a piece of hardware is rated to run at...meaning it is expected that 100% of the products released at these stock ratings should run at the stock speeds they are rated at. Failure to do so qualifies for an RMA, and the optimal ratio of performance / lifespan (if any decrease, only frequencies are being changed, no voltages) is achieved at that stock speed.

    If one didn't know about overclocking and underclocking, the hardware is expected to run at its stock speeds.

    I don't think this can be argued otherwise.
     
  17. Hugo Sanchez

    Hugo Sanchez Banned

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    Ok, that makes sense, but again, officially supported speeds are up to 1333Mhz on Phenom II CPU's. If that logic is true, and it makes sense really, then for NB speed of 2000Mhz, best RAM speed is 1333Mhz with 9-9-9-24 standard timings. and for NB 2400 is 1600Mhz with standard timings of 9-9-9-27.

    Anyways, it is not something that is observed in real word situations, but only in synthetic benchmarks, also, those links go for different CPU's and IMC (i7 with IGP used).

    Anyways, for IMC on PII processors, u would use 1066Mhz with 7-7-7-20 timings, while on FX, i would use 1333Mhz with 9-9-9-24 timings, that gives best real world usage.

    You can't apply same analogy for RAM. Because, even when modules are rated at one specification, is more important, at this time, for which specification IMC is best optimized, that's why, almost always, you will be better of with standard timings and frequency, and very often, with lower then specified.
     
  18. Pill Monster

    Pill Monster Banned

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  19. Hugo Sanchez

    Hugo Sanchez Banned

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    You must be 14, I'm not going to argue with kids on non relevant topics. Dop whatever you want. Cheers.

    It is interesting to see people who thinks they know better than engineers who created products.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2013
  20. EUOLA

    EUOLA Member

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    Ok serious problem now. Memtest goes through on single sticks. This makes me think that it's the motherboard and/or cpu that is dying, can't handle multiple sticks anymore.

    Is there any way to isolate the actual problem?
     

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