Chernobyl/Nuclear/Japan?

Discussion in 'The Guru's Pub' started by Jeremy, Mar 13, 2011.

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  1. Detection

    Detection Banned

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    I think they are just totally over their heads trying to cool all 4 reactors with sea water

    Someone just posted this from another forum

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-BzcO3AEHM&feature=player_embedded


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    2235: Tepco spokesman Hajimi Motujuku says the fire at reactor four is in the outer housing of the containment vessel. Its cause is not yet known, AP reports.
     
  2. The Laughing Ma

    The Laughing Ma Ancient Guru

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    So as long as your country doesn't produce the energy you are more than happy to pay the premium to have it imported from another country who will produce it any way they like? Okay fair enough at least you admit the hypocrisy in that statement and yeah it is still a pretty stupid question because who makes decisions on theoretical statements such as what if x goes tits up and in a big once in a life time unprecedented way?

    Ifs buts and maybes, in the history of nuclear power we have had what, two notable nuclear disasters Chernobyl and 3 mile island. Both of which affected how many people? 100,000 maybe 150,000 at most. I won't deny that when something goes wrong the number of people affected will be greater than would be affected by an 'explosion at a wind farm' but that's part of being human. It's called risk vs reward and the reward from nuclear power massively outweighs the risk. If we all lived according to the fact that if x happens and this all goes tits up then mankind wouldn't have gotten anywhere.

    You're saying that countries use unpredictable renewable sources as a supplement to their power supply for times when the need for energy is at their highest... that sounds like pure lunecy. I would love to see some source to see what countries are mad enough to do this, I would also like to see how often they are affected by brown outs as well as just how much energy they have to import.

    What I've read so far suggests that wind farms work on a shot gun effect, that if you place enough of these things in enough locations you will get continuous power supply on the bases that you will always have the wind blowing somewhere, a shot gun effect like that sounds hugely laughable and massively inefficient for a 'renewable' energy source. The second thing being that conventional systems are kept on stand as a way to pick up the slack. Currently that is not such an issue in this country because the production amount from 'renewable' energy sources is so low that a sudden drop off would have little real effect, however the more you add these 'renewable' sources to the network the more you need to have on stand by. I.e if wind farms produce 1% you need a coal station ready to produce 1% if they produce 50% you need that coal station ready to produce 50%.

    Now you can say well chances of all the renewable sources suddenly stopping at once are slim but chances of a nuclear power plant blowing up are even slimmer so...

    Their is only one form of truly predictable form of renewable energy source and that is wave power. Strategic placement does not guarantee production, like I said shotgun effect, stick enough wind farms in enough places and you will get some form of continuous form of power supply.

    End of the day the massive amounts of cash, time and research spent on renewable sources would have been better spent on making conventional sources more efficient and much cleaner.
     
  3. Detection

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  4. Nbz

    Nbz Master Guru

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    @ Skiddy

    Regarding the Photovoltaic Plant at Algarve.
    As you can see, its quite a small output for such a large space.

     

  5. Skiddywinks

    Skiddywinks Ancient Guru

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    Ah thanks. See, impressive, but maybe not the best choice. Obviously, without knowing the brief and demands etc, I have no idea. Although I will be looking in to it, seems worth knowing about.

    EDIT: 93,000 MW? Seriously? Just looked up photovoltaic power stations and it does not seem to list any of the top ones as located in Portugal. And the top one according to said list only manages 93 MW.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2011
  6. Jeremy

    Jeremy Ancient Guru

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    apparently the flames are invisible now?!
     
  7. JohnMaclane

    JohnMaclane Ancient Guru

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    Just going to jump in the renewable energy debate, many of the points you bring up against renewable energy are being solved by interesting new plant topologies. I used to think like you but then I had to do some research on D-Q controlled PWM inverters and their prime application is renewables.

    On the wind side we now have turbines which operate with a variable speed, giving a very low cut in speed (even 2m/s) and high cut out speeds which give wind a boatload more of generation time, not only that but thanks to D-Q or what in this application is called reactive/active power control a very large wind farm installation (with different speed ranges to cover all weather conditions) can now be connected to the national grid with the added benefit of it appearing as conventional synchronous generator plant (normal ones). This makes the resource predictable, reliable and can be integrated in the typical distribution network (so no need to spend gazillions new equipment).

    Solar energy in general has also vastly improved, with grid connected PWM inverters and a battery bank solar can give a nearly continues power stream and thanks to modern inverters have no trouble meeting utility standards.


    These technologies don't solve all the problems, wind still is a tricky animal and still not suitable for base-load generations (something nuclear power plants do the best) and solar has the pitfall of not working at night coupled with energy densities being too low.
     
  8. Taint3dBulge

    Taint3dBulge Maha Guru

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    http://www.asiaone.com/News/Latest+News/Asia/Story/A1Story20110315-268286.html

    Fukushima reactor shell breached

    PARIS - THE concrete vessel around the No. 2 reactor at Japan's Fukushima plant, designed to contain radioactive debris, is 'no longer sealed,' Andre-Claude Lacoste, head of France's Nuclear Safety Authority (ASN), said on Tuesday.

    Mr Lacoste was speaking at a press conference in which he also said the accident at Fukushima now rated six on a seven-point international scale of gravity, placing it second to Chernobyl as the world's worst nuclear disaster.

    The ASN is being briefed by the Japanese authorities and by a specialist from France's Institute for Radiological Protection and Nuclear Safety (IRSN), according to the agency.

    The confinement vessel, made out of reinforced concrete, surrounds the steel vessel that houses the nuclear reactor. It is designed to contain radioactive gas or dust, preventing them from being expelled into the air.

    In a press statement, the ASN said two 'successive explosions, at 6.10am (5am Singapore time) and 10.00am local time probably caused damage to the confinement vessel which is the source of the significant increase in detected radioactive releases.'

    The operators of a crippled nuclear power plant may pour water into the overheating fuel pool in the No. 4 reactor within two or three days, the plant operator said. It did not say why it had to wait two or three days.
    I hope this aint true.. :(


    People are going nuts on wanting to know whats going on. lol

    http://www.ustwrap.info/multi/yokosonews::nhk-world-tv::tbstv
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2011
  9. Dustpuppy

    Dustpuppy Ancient Guru

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    Yeah, the lack of communication is killer, but then the people who could actually do the communication are a tad tied up at the moment :p World nuclear news is the most informative I can find, but it's backed by the 'world nuclear association' which might cause problems for people who don't trust corporations/trade associations.

    May as well resign ourselves to cries of Chernobyl now. If this many people are screaming when just the plant is contaminated, once the surrounding area begins to heat up the public is going to have a meltdown.

    No longer sealed does not necessarily mean a large energetic ejection of material, but it certainly does not bode well for the area around the plant.

    anyway some good news:

    "All Fukushima Daini units in cold shutdown
    15 March 2011
    All four units at the Fukushima Daini nuclear power plant have now achieved cold shutdown - where coolant water is at less than 100ºC - with full operation of cooling systems, Tepco reported...."
     
  10. Avefenix

    Avefenix Master Guru

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  11. HeavyHemi

    HeavyHemi Ancient Guru

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    Ermmm....does this even remotely jibe with reality...

    All four units at the Fukushima Daini nuclear power plant have now achieved cold shutdown - where coolant water is at less than 100ºC - with full operation of cooling systems, Tepco reported. All the reactors shut down automatically during last week's earthquake and have remained safe. While unit 3's shutdown went as expected, damage to the emergency core cooling systems of units 1, 2 and 4 led to the announcement of emergency status. These three reactors were prepared for potential pressure release, but this was never required. Unit 1 announced cold shutdown at 1.24 am on 14 March and unit 2 followed at 3.52 am. Tepco has now announced that unit 4 achieved cold shutdown at 7.15 pm on 15 March. Water levels are now stable in all four reactors and offsite power is available, the company said.

    B]EDIT[/B]

    I see....Fukushima Dai-ichi is where the problems are not Fukushima Daini
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2011
  12. Nbz

    Nbz Master Guru

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    http://www.theportugalnews.com/cgi-bin/article.pl?id=947-7
    I just rechecked my sources and the project is dated of 2008, newer and bigger Photovoltaic Plants have been built arround the world.


    Code:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_photovoltaic_power_stations
    Here is the list of the top photovoltaic Power plants, the one I was talking about is currently ranked #9 in the world.
    Eventhough its nominal power isn't the biggest, its anual production is top #2 on that list, only behind USA.
     
  13. hallryu

    hallryu Don Altobello

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  14. Skiddywinks

    Skiddywinks Ancient Guru

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    Ah, thank you for the information. Very interesting.
     
  15. scheherazade

    scheherazade Ancient Guru

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    I think you need to re-examine that thought.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
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    [​IMG]

    Birth defects are rampant in certain areas.

    Fallout makes its way into the soil, and drains into the water supply, and concentrates/pools in some areas more than others.

    A small dose over a large area, can in time become a large does over a small area.



    That said, I wouldn't compare Japan's issues today to Ukraine's.
    There's a big difference between venting some steam (that in itself is slightly contaminated) - and full-on burning of the core in open air.

    -scheherazade
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2011

  16. tuco

    tuco Ancient Guru

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    "If you are in any doubt as to what this means, it is that in the company's view, it is possible that enough fissile uranium is present in enough density to form a critical mass in the cooling pond - meaning that a nuclear fission reaction could start in the building, outside the containment shield that surrounds the actual reactor."

    cut from bbc

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12762608


    obviously its a section of the article, but I gasped when I read that paragraph.
    Fingers crossed they cool it and shut the beast down.
     
  17. hallryu

    hallryu Don Altobello

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    Its good to be sceptical.
     
  18. Taint3dBulge

    Taint3dBulge Maha Guru

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    http://www.businessinsider.com/fukushima-nuclear-plant-2011-3

    NUKE CRISIS ESCALATES: Fuel Rods In Reactors 4, 5, And 6 Exposed; Four Reactors Have Core Damage



    Not much we can do but wait this out fellas... I fear the worst is about to come.. I pray that they fix this **** soon!!!!! One thing im wondering is, if one core goes kaboom do the others, since they are so close. Or could they be safe from a major blowout?
     
  19. Mufflore

    Mufflore Ancient Guru

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    Thanks for the info, but
    How are any of the cores going to go kaboom?
     
  20. hallryu

    hallryu Don Altobello

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    According to the experts here, there's no chance.
     
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