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Call me paranoid but...

Discussion in 'The Guru's Pub' started by Nomadspy, Jul 28, 2012.

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  1. Nomadspy

    Nomadspy Master Guru

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    See exactly what is pushing me about these thoughts are the old people.Like 90% of all old people want communism back.Most pensioners here barely survive the month.I know people that when they pay their electricity,water bills can't afford food after that.And during the Communism you could not see anything like that they say.About the history I know it quite well.After Russia freed us by Ottoman slavery Bulgaria was wasteland.There was nothing no army,no economy nothing.As orthodox country Russia couldn't just watch us like that.They sen't us plenty of resources to stabilize the country and trained our own army.In return all they wanted was small export which was very little compared to what the done and give us.Those Bulgarians who complain by the Communism was and are traitors in my opinion.Sure it was not perfect indeed.There were many restrictions but imho they were just for temporary protection by west.
    And question to you.How could you like the Bulgarian accent it's horrible when you listen it in another language lol There's must be someone pointing a gun at me to use this painful sound :D Well it's a matter of personal taste i guess ;)
     
  2. JohnMaclane

    JohnMaclane Ancient Guru

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    So you take old people reminiscing about the past as fact? old people who were subject to soviet propaganda?

    **** man I hear my grandma saying how things were great when she was a kid, to bad its not true as life was crappy but that's what old people do.

    Pensioners moan and bitch everywhere, in eastern Europe its more acute because pensions being paid with contributions during the soviet era are clearly insufficient due to the massive gap between the cost of living assumed in the soviet system vis a vis capitalism.

    I cant believe how pro Russian you are, the Russians didn't 'give' away anything, have some self respect as I'm sure Bulgarians would have been just fine and dandy without Russian 'help'. Just look at all the 'help' east Germans got compared to west Germany, a nice big concrete wall, a crappy economy and the worlds best secret police vs gazillions of dollars in direct aid from the marshal plan and self government.
     
  3. Nomadspy

    Nomadspy Master Guru

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    Can't you understand that the small countries can't survive without somebody controlling them.It's impossible.I don't know in which century are you living but, no we could not do "just fine".Either East or West we ARE dependent.I prefer the East because they wont use us just for their own good but actually help us develop as country.20 years of US dictatorship and my country is useless piece of **** nothing more.I ****ing hate when people that have no single idea what is socialism or communism talking about it.West is violence can't ****ing see?Wars,wars and wars. Occupying 3rd world countries and making them even worst.When the soviets invaded Afghanistan they didn't just build military bases over there.Look at the buildings.Their whole cities are in soviet stile if you look carefully.They actually gave something to the people over there and not shooting at the civilians.All these video games and movies can't tell you a thing of the actual reality.I'm truly amazed how the western propaganda last even the days after the cold war.The greatest mistake of the soviets was that they was too peaceful and did not used the power of the Warsaw Pact to end the lives of the aggressors.Now I realize how the west was scared by the military power of the USSR.Problem was people here and in the USSR were too naive to believe that the western Imperialism would give them better life...

    This thread had a bit political overload lol And yes i know what i said in the first post.It's just too interesting to let it go.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2012
  4. tweakpower

    tweakpower Banned

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    Here is the thing, you speak about things you don't know, i wonder how old are you? Old people mean, yes, but, life was different here only 20 years ago. System of economy, social justice and everything was on level that no other country can even compare to be honest.

    For about pro Russian thing, so, maybe he is, but how he can be pro European (meaning about European Union) or pro US, if they was direct contributors to worsen living standard in hes county?

    Problem was simple, Bulgaria thanks to historical differences never was in Yugoslavia (despite they share similar or same roots as most of their neighbour, mine opinion is that it should been), like that, Bulgaria was more easy to take over by powers then more countries united, and that's why war was here anyways, and they gone without war.

    For capitalism, it is based on animal instinct, and since people are indeed animals, and we like to think we are more special, but we are not obviously, because if we are, we would not need comunism, than, simple perfect socialism would do the job nicely, capitalism would not be in question at all as an option. Problem is, in order to implement some social system, you have to have people advanced enough to be capable to sustain it. That's why communism was introduced, first, educate people as much as you can, scare them (for those who need that) in order to stop them doing immoral things. After some time, you got your results, and almost perfect society, then you don't need communistic ideology, but replace it with pure socialism, and keep only part of cmm. in order to prevent things to go out of control. Simple fact is that 90% of people are not capable to think with their own head, and there communism do that for them, so for example you think one thing is good, but you are wrong, and gov. prevents you to do that in order to help you (hope you understand that line...). If 90% people are capable to think, then, perfect system would be in whole world.

    Capitalism on the other hand, do not destinct us from animals, and just proves and show us who we really are. And all wars and things around us show us the same. We are not enough evolved (mentally) to do anything different.

    Take for example East Germany to West Germany. In east GER. person who works at some factory (for example) would have granted job if he make product to be more envi. frendly, to use less recourse, and last longer. But in west GER. you had system that is now wide spread, and you are familiar with it. Now you can debate what system is better, and you don't know that, maybe you think that current system is better, but if you look at things from neutral side (look at yourself), you will find out very easily that system that saves natural recourse's is better, not only for you, but also for future. And that is also one of the reasons why capitalism takes over.

    Other problems are, that thanks to us (people in general) those good system are almost impossible to introduce. And here on the forum for example, you can see it clearly, especially on topics as this one.

    At the end, if you ask me, i would not take any side, i always mind mine own bussines, and that's how ex-YU (for example) was working, and someone didn't like that (i let you choose who didn't), we here, didn't cared about attacking anyone, nor our gov. despite the fact it was communistic. People had very high living standard, free education, health care etc. etc. System was far advanced comapred tho any system in Europe at that time (or any time) or US etc. But we did care for others, and of we could, we tried to help them, make some organisations world wide etc. to help undeveloped counties. And that is all about, that's why, you would say for some person he is great, first "democratic" presedent etc. but we call him payed **** who really should be killed, why? Answer: Person who put himself/herself and it's interest above interest of general population is immoral, and should be punished, and, i don't see bigger crime than destroying lifes of milions. That's far worse then killing someone with gun.

    I hope you did understand anything from mine post. Maybe i forgot something, but well, in rush sorry.
     

  5. tweakpower

    tweakpower Banned

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    Hey! You are not right about that. Only problem is people. If you lead your country, and i lead mine. We can survive without anyone, recourses i need you have, you need i have, simple fair trade and that's it. same for other countries etc.

    Problem are people.
     
  6. dsbig

    dsbig Ancient Guru

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    well now I do.....but then I lived in the country in the middle of nowhere

    walking out to the barn and a private jet plane flew right over my head and went back up.
     
  7. JohnMaclane

    JohnMaclane Ancient Guru

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    What are you? what do you mean small countries cant be on their own? I come from a country of 400k people and we do fine on our own (been that way since 1964). More then fine, as a matter of fact better then most.

    How exactly did the USSR 'help' countries? by forcing one party rule throughout the 'liberated' nations of eastern Europe? The USSR agreed on paper to support elections but instead installed single party communist regimes all over the place... hardly support.

    Yalta conference link for you
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yalta_Conference

    Potsdam agreement (which the USSR also did not comply with)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potsdam_Agreement

    You have to be blind and deaf to think the soviets 'helped' people.. was it help when they decided to send tanks to murder civilians?


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956

    Was it help when the soviets decided to stave west berlin?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Blockade

    Was it help when they decided to build a wall so that the favoured soviet citizens would not risk running to the west?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Wall

    Another helping hand was the establishment of the Stasi which terrorised thousands of people with the most sophisticated secret police ever?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi

    The point being the soviet system was so flawed that to keep their own citizens a concrete wall had to be built, not the signs of an open transparent society now is it?

    Foreign policy wise I would agree that the soviets were more cautions then the US, which created plenty of disasters all over the world but you can't exactly exclude the two.


    I would agree that US foreign policy is not good in general, however they didn't need to murder their own citizens in order to keep their system working.

    I get my info not from games and movies, plenty of good documentaries exist which reveal the truths (even the ugly american ones) for everyone to see. The best series I've watched is the cold war series

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_War_(TV_series)

    Excellent mix of film with interviews with the protagonists.
     
  8. Nomadspy

    Nomadspy Master Guru

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    I'll see you how fine you would be in eventual world war and no allies.It's all about the military strength.Why do you think NATO never attacked the Warsaw.Because we was united.8 countries united in one superpower far greater than any existing in that time.Cooperation is the future of the humanity.
     
  9. JohnMaclane

    JohnMaclane Ancient Guru

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    How old I am is irrelevant, talk to any old person and they always start about the good old days. It's a fact in the west as it is in the east. The only way we can say who was better off is if we check common tools used to measure progress, ie GDP, consumption and standard of living all of which say that the soviet system was deeply flawed.

    How? Please tell me the US screwed the standard of living? You expected the transition from a centrally planned economy to a mixed economy would happen overnight in a seamless fashion? it takes years for a country to adjust, my country passed through 20 years of turmoil after independence due to the drastic changes decolonisation imposed.

    What are you saying? you are not making sense.

    What perfect society? the soviet union imploded overnight it was so 'perfect'. Mind you I am not saying capitalism is king, I think bar some nutjobs no one believes that any government can be purely capitalist. Personally I like mixed economies.

    The soviet union more environmentally friendly? what are you smoking? the soviet economy was geared for heavy industry and arms the most polluting industries available. How could you even dare compare the soviet economy to west Germany? They call it the west German economic miracle for a reason, if anything taking east/west Germany as an example only says how much you are wrong, one side became a economic superpower and the other side failed miserably.

    If you look it at from the facts it becomes very simple, the soviet economy failed in every department.

    The last paragraph just shows even more how you have no idea what you are talking about. Free healthcare and education are not communist only, I have free healthcare and education and don't live under communism, same can be said for many other European countries.

    So what now, ignore everything I wrote because you can't disprove it and post more garbage.

    Who gives a crap about the 8 countries, the soviets could have had all the tanks, guns, ships, planes and what not because in the atomic age its all about playing a zero sum game. That is the reason no one attacked each other not because people were scared but for the simple fact that any direct confrontation between the US and the USSR would have resulted in the total annihilation of humanity via atomic bombs.

    Also if you think co-operation is the future then why would you oppose the EU, its ALL about co-operation.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 30, 2012
  10. tweakpower

    tweakpower Banned

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    How old are you is quite relevant. Ok, if you use so called common tools, you would know that GDP in Yugoslavia was higher than in any country in Europe, literacy rate also, employment rate etc. etc. And that was communistic country. But, those are not tools that show how people leave, there is more to life then pure statistic, it is called satisfaction. About soviet system, i never said it was perect, system was actually, but i mentioned alredy that system is not introduced as it properly. And look ate any BIG country, for example US, there is no difference. It is hard to implement any system on large population, good thing about US is regions, or states, separated, acting as independent countries (alsmost).

    Well, i can ignore this really. We have real names for all those terms you used. No one ever expected transition in most counntries here, except few maybe... Transit to what? When you are satisfied with everything, and all good. Don't get your point here. Maybe your country had some economic problems that are not artifically injected by powers (i doubt really), but anyways, hey, it is your opinion.

    Nah, you just don't understand, it is simple and clear, i can't explain it more simple, i just don't know to do that.

    Well everything is written above, read one more time.

    Well, i compared here East and West Germany, never mentioned Russia. And even if I did, you can see clearly who failed miserably, you can see it now, and you will see it more in future. Except that, US pollution of total pollution in the world is around 60% or even more (not sure maybe 80%+, i know is far far too much). Also, only good working industry (that actually gain profit) in USA for example is printing money. That just show how little you know, please read more, learn more.

    Name one where everything is free, from heart transplatation to dentist? Thank you.

    EU have nothing to do with cooperation, learn more.
     

  11. JohnMaclane

    JohnMaclane Ancient Guru

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    Yugoslavia was not part of the soviet system, read about the 1948 split. It ran a much more open economy and played with both the west and the east. Tito was a master politician and was able to consolidate his personal brand of socialism until his export oriented economy collapsed and required IMF bailouts. Ultimately the nation could not survive due to ethnic tensions which resulted in ethnic cleansing... hardly a success story.

    Dude, again lay off the cake. The transition happened because the union collapsed, without the soviets all that heavy industry, arms production and what little consumer industry any country east of the berlin wall used to make became worthless.

    Who was going to buy a trabant which you had to wait 5 years for? the soviets couldn't even make a decent refrigerator.

    So when the soviet union collapsed due to both political and economic reasons the new countries had to make difficult changes.

    Then you talk about my country.. next time do a little search because you are showing more and more to the whole forum just how uneducated you are.

    My country was a British colony up until 1964, we had one of NATOs largest airbases and housed the Mediterranean fleet for god knows how long. The economy was dependant on military spending so much so we used to be known as fortress Malta.

    We made the transition, it was messy and convoluted but ultimately things turned up fine. Mind you there are people with the slave mentality you have who wish the British were still in control but their wrong.


    I didnt mention russia, I said soviet system of which the GDR was part of it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Germany

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Germany

    Artciles will educate you as to how west Germany was a success vs the east. East Germany had a constant population decline (because it sucked so much) as well as shortages of food until the 60s... real nice.

    US pollution (in total) had to be higher then the soviets because the US economy was double the size:

    The above is referenced so do not even try to deny this.


    UK, Malta, Italy just to name a few.

    Don't take offence but you do not seem like the kind of person which has ever studied anything seriously. I like to consider myself a history buff and have read and watched tonnes of material. Also unlike you I can notice the difference between unreferenced hearsay and referenced fact. Your posts are full of bull**** hearsay and man it makes you look stupid.
     
  12. Noisiv

    Noisiv Ancient Guru

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    This discussion has (almost) nothing to do with education, or the lack of it.

    Ivo Andric, a Nobel prize winner, he couldn't stand Bosnian Muslims.
    Architects of Serbian military aggression in the 90s is their National Academy of Science and Art, intellectual elite, writers, doctors, professors etc.

    Hardly an illiterate bunch.

    I assure you... you can live 100 years, but you'll be dead before you reason with his myths.
     
  13. JohnMaclane

    JohnMaclane Ancient Guru

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    I wasn't talking about that part. More about his escapist views on the soviet union. Racism is a different issue altogether with plenty of smart people being racist.
     
  14. Noisiv

    Noisiv Ancient Guru

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    I wasn't talking about racism in general either ;)
     
  15. JohnMaclane

    JohnMaclane Ancient Guru

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    Well the nasty ethnic cleansing ones I guess however I don't care too much for racists either.
     

  16. tweakpower

    tweakpower Banned

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    Who ever said it was, and why would i read about 1948 split when it never happened (in order to have split, you need connection first between two politicans etc.)? Yeah right, you learned it well, one bambi for you. Corrupted history, nice one. Tito was Mason, his name was Josip Klein son of Polish Grof, and he had nothing to do with real Josip Broz (who was from one villige Smiljanjic if i remember correctly). He was a follower of English crown, royal family. And he acted on their directions. System was never required IMF bailouts, if anything, we hardly had a dept (few billions), compared to now (same teritory over 300 billions, not quite sure). IMF bailout is one of political play to break strong Country in fragments (without war, or to cause war).

    Wow, it would require quite some time and text to get your facts straight. Tarbant was never car from YU, industry was good actually, not worthless (as you claim), but you did come on point here, and you will maybe understand it soon. For large corporation, you need market (capitalistic system), cheaper production beats concurention. You get your lines from this, if you are able.

    Slave mentality, how you draw this conclusion, who ever said i wish for you to be British colony, or any other country? I'm sorry, but your understanding is very limited as i can see, no matter how much books you read, if you can't process it, you will be simple narrator of the text. That is one of the most sucessful way of learning, but it limits way of thinking.
    Why would i even try to deny that? It's from Wikipedia, it MUST BE TRUE!. BTW, that was the whole point of mine post, if you read it slowly, you would understand.
    Ok, and free health care, dentist etc in UK Malta, and that's why people from UK comes to Belgrade to do transplatation because it is cheaper? Hmmm... Free dentist? OK. I trust you, you live there, i don't.

    Yeah, I also noticed that, you are quite good at history, you learned it well. And you are right, i don't learn from books (history books), thanks to the life experience, i learned why I should not learn from books, or in your case Wikipedia (especially). That's why your age is quite relevant, but I can see that you are around 18-22 (you sound like that). Time will tell you more than what you read, and when i said read more, i mean it, but that means from different sources, not only from one.

    I just find amazing things you said. Ivo Andric was not racist because he described all what Serbs was going trough tanks to Turks, and Gipsys deported from Germany to Yugoslavia 1939 during the 3rd reich.

    Serbian aggression in 90's never existed, you just mixed up facts with myths, and changed place to them. But i can understand that, you are manipulated from day you started life on this planet, and it is really hard to trow away all things you learned (no matter how true they are).

    Guys, I'm aware i can't change your opinion, and you will not waste your time to learn something that you will not need any time soon (maybe). I can only be grateful for all things that happened here (in my country), and to you who posts those opinions. Maybe you are not aware of that, but you guys help me even more to expand understanding, and i hope i can help you too, and that would be a reason why i even type here, despite the fact it is not easy and consumes quite a bit of time and effort.
     
  17. Nomadspy

    Nomadspy Master Guru

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    What have i done...
     
  18. Noisiv

    Noisiv Ancient Guru

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    Tito was freemason??

    Josip Klein, son of Polish Grof?


    Oh dear.... :D

    BTW you've mixed up a bit Tito(birthplace Kumrovec) and Tesla (birthplace Smiljan)?

    Exactly :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2012
  19. tweakpower

    tweakpower Banned

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    Yeah i mixed places, no wonder, i was just out of bed, but that is quite irrelevant where he is born, i just mentioned it (wrongly) to show who that person was, not Josip Broz indeed, he missed few fingers you know, and Tito had it all.. And you lough at the fact that Tito was freemason? :) OK.

    Nothing he done really, just confronted different opinions, and that's normal thing to do. Nothing is wrong when someone tells truth, no matter how inappropriate it can be.

    Now you can glue on me that one mistake i did, and base all other argumenst against my claims on that :D (that's usual way of discrediting someone).
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2012
  20. Noisiv

    Noisiv Ancient Guru

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    No no... please. It could happen to anyone.
    Besides I agree, that little mistake is totally irrelevant for this discussion.

    You getting out of the bed at 3 PM might not be [​IMG]
     
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