Black Mesa Thread

Discussion in 'Games, Gaming & Game-demos' started by Outrance, Apr 6, 2011.

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Black Mesa is out - Was it worth the wait?

  1. Yes!

    136 vote(s)
    64.2%
  2. I expected a little more, but still like it.

    31 vote(s)
    14.6%
  3. I'm a little disappointed.

    14 vote(s)
    6.6%
  4. What were they doing this whole time?!

    14 vote(s)
    6.6%
  5. ****** **** ***** ****!!!!

    17 vote(s)
    8.0%
  1. AsiJu

    AsiJu Ancient Guru

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    Note guys that vid is running Reshade "path tracing" and SSR shader, not hardware ray tracing let alone RT properly implemented within game.

    BM dev. commented on the video saying that by tweaking textures a bit the overall result would be better and less watery / shiny but it's still a Reshade filter like any other, based solely on pixel color and depth.
    Given that limitation McFly's RT shader is nothing short of impressive as it's essentially guessing what are light sources and how light should propagate but it's an artificial solution nonetheless.

    Reshade will not use any RT cores from RTX cards as it runs on pixel shaders alone (so it will run on all cards).
    This could maybe work in the future if Reshade gets DX12 or Vulkan support so RT cores could be exposed to it.

    Even then the game needs to use one of those to start with (BM is DX9).

    If you want to see a proper current implementation of RT(X) look at Metro Exodus or Control.
    Both of which do look stunning without RT but the effect of RT GI is it makes lighting more realistic and this effect is often subtle.

    However when you start noticing it, artificial GI starts sticking out like a sore thumb :)
    Having played Quake 2 RTX I find it hard to go back to Quake 2 XP or vanilla Quake 2 for that reason.
    (Obviously there are other reasons that favor XP or vanilla game over RTX).

    Implementationwise Quake 2 RTX is also a good example, actually even better than Exodus or Control, but given the source material it can be hard to appreciate RT.

    To date Q2 RTX is the most comprehensive RT implementation where rasterization is no longer used for anything - unless you want to by changing settings - but all lights, shadows including AO and reflections are done in RT.

    In addition highest quality GI uses 4 rays per pixel. For comparison Exodus on Ultra RT uses 1 ray per pixel (and 0.5 on lower settings, meaning one ray for 2 pixels).
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2020
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  2. emperorsfist

    emperorsfist Maha Guru

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    I've reached Xen at last. I must say that, for the Source engine, it looks really good! I like that they've added in some new variations of established monsters, to make it feel fresh. It has a bit too much electricity puzzles, but so far none of them had me stuck.
     
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  3. Martigen

    Martigen Master Guru

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    Just to be clear this is not Nvidia RTX, it's Marty McFly's RT shader + a screen space reflections shader. The latter is what is making everything look shiny in that vid and yes, I agree, it looks far too artificial. The SSR shader is designed for screenshots where surfaces that could be reflective can be made to be reflective, it is most definitely not meant to be used as a global solution.

    The RT shader however is epic, and Marty has done some incredible work. It will properly shadow and AO based on the lights present, and do a better job than most modern in-game AO solutions. You will also see light cast from light sources on nearby surfaces, and this can reflect the object itself, but it doesn't change the surface of the texture the light is being cast on the way SSR does.

    Which is to say, use the RT shader on its own. And anyone can set this up for free with Reshade, and run it on any card. I'd love to see that video without the SSR shader, I think you'd find the results much more impressive.

    I'm going to be using the RT shader in my run through with BM :). Because it is actually tracing, the RT shader is very demanding, and while it looks incredible in modern games, you often don't have the GPU headroom left to run it after the game's own visuals. But on the old Source engine like this for BM, I'm hoping there'll be headroom to spare, especially with SLI :)
     
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  4. DocStr4ngelove

    DocStr4ngelove Master Guru

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    I think i crouched at the side of the plattform and they ended up jumping over my head lol IIRC
     
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  5. AsiJu

    AsiJu Ancient Guru

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    @Martigen
    if you wham all settings to max the game can in places be somewhat taxing on GPU too, so if you want to run RT shader you might need to tinker with ingame settings a bit.

    There's even an "enable unsupported performance heavy graphics features" or something to that vein checkbox in settings.
    Have it enabled, ofc, but not sure what it actually does, at least some places have godrays now?

    For 95 % of my playthrough I've been able to keep a locked 115 fps @ 1080p/120 Hz (capped to that via RTSS). Only now at the dam area in Surface Tension there were notable drops to the 60s.
    Though not due to hardware power, GPU usage actually dropped during those bits and the drops seemed to relate to looking at certain direction from a certain spot.

    Average GPU usage for me is at around 40 % I think with all settings maxed. There are places where it goes as high as 90+ % but only temporarily.

    Also yes, forgot to mention myself that the "mirror-finish" is due to SSR shader in the video, not RT shader as is
    (=RT does not alter the properties of the texture on the surface light is cast on, rather uses them to determine how much light is absorbed, refracted or reflected).
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2020
  6. AsiJu

    AsiJu Ancient Guru

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    Yeah that works too :D

    I must say that one of the things I really like in Black Mesa - there are a lot - is the new soundtrack.

    It's different from the og but fits the game and its mood perfectly I think. The tracks themselves are nice to listen to.
    Kudos to the composer!
     
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  7. Damien_Azreal

    Damien_Azreal Ancient Guru

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    Yeah, I know.
    But it's also something that has popped up in current RTX titles.

    Control is a prime example, a great game. And I love it. But, with RTX on... the floors, walls... everything just looks (as you said) artificial because it's all super reflective.
    It doesn't look real.
     
  8. Kolt

    Kolt Ancient Guru

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    I agree with you for the most part, but we have to draw a line of understanding of what is the technology itself and what is artistic choices and/or mistakes. What I mean is that RTX done well can look great. It's up to the developers to implement it right. The over-shiny and too polished textures is the fault of the artistic and/or map/texture designers for the most part. I think the tech is obviously in it's infancy so what you are saying in general about the tech for the most part is true, but given time it's going to get a lot better once people start to implement it right. No one thinks RTX is a must have right now, so you shying away from it isn't obscene or unjustified at all. Some of us simply appreciate the technology and are rooting for it to prevail and become something of a standard which often means dealing with a 'beta' package and watching the technology grow iteration to iteration. Regardless of how bad it may look in some games, there are other games where it has shown to be amazing so some of us are just eager to see how it's used and innovated. At the very least right now it's all something you can toggle (with exception of Quake RTX). Regardless to how anyone thinks of the specific technology within Nvidia's RTX, ray and path tracing is the future and it needs to get there somehow and from a starting point. It's good to see it grow, and hopefully developers start to move away from overdoing the shiny and oily surfaces like you mentioned.
     
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  9. Damien_Azreal

    Damien_Azreal Ancient Guru

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    Honestly didn't think I would need to be this specific...

    I'm saying how it's being used is doing nothing to make me feel like I need to pay to get a card to be able to use it.
    It should be common sense that tech can only really be judged by how it's used.

    I dislike.. "How it is used". And, to make someone feel like they need to buy a card that supports it, how it's used/shown/implemented is crucial. And, when some of the "best examples" of it... look bad to me, yeah.
    So, I don't feel the need to specifically state "I dislike how RTX is artistically used" and instead, just say that as of right now, I dislike RTX.
     
  10. Kolt

    Kolt Ancient Guru

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    I get that, but you've also made comments regarding RTX in general that could be perceived as a general dislike for RTX overall. It's not just you, but a lot of people post about how "X" game(s) look bad with RTX and come across as generally not liking RTX altogether when it needs to be stated that some of these devs just aren't doing it right at all.

    That comment is kind of what I meant. Nothing you said was wrong at all, it's a matter of opinion and you made it clear on that.. I just wanted to supplement what you were saying with how I feel about RTX based off similar comments. RTX is generally being disliked by many due to artistic choices or lack of polish and how it looks in certain games. Again, I'm not discrediting how you feel or your opinions here but instead I'm just making an observation based off the general consensus. Based off your previous posts I fully understand that you aren't just making stupid comments out of your ass and I'm not trying to act like you are or anything, but I do see a lot of people discrediting RTX overall because of some oily looking textures so I felt compelled to respond lol.

    In a nutshell I'm explaining why some of us did dish out the extra money to basically 'beta test' RTX for everyone else.
     

  11. Damien_Azreal

    Damien_Azreal Ancient Guru

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    Yes, I've said "this game looks bad because of RTX"...
    Because HOW RTX is used in the game makes it look bad. As I said, I didn't feel I needed to clarify, should be common sense that how a feature is used affects how it's perceived. And, in the case of Quake 2... I think how they did if absolutely ruined Quake 2's atmosphere.

    I think how it's done in Control looks gaudy and obnoxious.
    I just don't feel like going into detail with each statement that "I feel RTX is poorly used in this case, and by extension makes the game's visual aesthetic look poor"...
    It's quicker and easier to simply say "I think RTX looks crap in this game"...
    Because, right now, it does. Be it how the developer used it or not... it still comes down to the fact that my issue is, at it's core, with RTX in general.


    Based off of how it's being used in recent games, it's not worth the financial obligation to be able to use it. Specially when it offers nothing in terms of gameplay.
    I will always put gameplay ahead of visuals, and shiny walls and floors... ;)
     
  12. Kolt

    Kolt Ancient Guru

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    [​IMG]

    I like Quake 2 RTX. I've played Quake 2 so many times in the past, but playing through Quake 2 RTX was actually exciting and interesting again. It may have "ruined the atmosphere" to you, but to others it showcased just what RTX can do and it completely changed the way the game looked. Do we really need to be so Quake snobby that we can't appreciate a FREE modification to an old game showcasing RTX features? I haven't played Control, so I can't comment there.. but I also really liked the RTX in Metro Exodus. It changed the atmosphere entirely in certain scenes and only for the better.. more realism. in BF5 the RTX looks good, can provide gameplay advantages, and doesn't create any scenes (that I've seen) where the surfaces look too shiny or fake. The problem with BF5 RTX is with the FPS and stutter hits so most of us don't use it in MP. So again, it's all just your opinion there based on the titles you've experienced.

    On that note, no one asked you to clarify anything so you can stop bringing that up as well as your 'common sense' snarks btw. All I said was that "I agree with you for the most part, but we have to draw a line of understanding of what is the technology itself and what is artistic choices and/or mistakes." and went on to talk about my opinion on how RTX is being often overlooked, but you seem to be taking it a little bit personally.. My last post went on to clarify just how indirect and not-at-all-personal my statement was.. I even went as far as to say, "Based off your previous posts I fully understand that you aren't just making stupid comments out of your ass and I'm not trying to act like you are or anything, but I do see a lot of people discrediting RTX overall because of some oily looking textures so I felt compelled to respond lol." So maybe chill with the snarky crap. I'm not trying to be an ass here lol.
     
  13. Damien_Azreal

    Damien_Azreal Ancient Guru

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    Neither am I.
    Not being snarky...and I'm not taking anything personally. Sorry if you took it that way but it was not the intention.

    I don't take anything personally read online, because you can't clearly take someone's inflections or tone. I felt we were having a nice, calm conversation about RTX and how it's used with poor and lackluster artistic direction.
    Nobody is trying to be an ass here.


    I'm just pretty much always on the outs when it comes to RTX, and in a lot of other places... nobody sees it a fault of any artistic direction. They see it as some godly new tech that instantly makes games look awesome, and if I don't like it... I'm an ass.
    So, it is what it is. I agree with your previous comment, and was trying to bring that across in my post... but, putting my thoughts into words is very difficult for me. And as such, sometimes things come out wrong.
     
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  14. Kolt

    Kolt Ancient Guru

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    Well damn, I feel bad now then. I might need to look into how I am reading some comments then.. I'm sorry, I totally took it as being snarky. The internet is definitely not the best place to read sarcasm or tone, you're right about that.
     
  15. Damien_Azreal

    Damien_Azreal Ancient Guru

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    Don't worry about it.
    It's something I've gotten better at over years, but... I have difficulties putting my thoughts to word sometimes. And even more so typing them out.
    So... there are times I can come across, unintentionally, a bit negative or even hostile.

    But, it's never intended.
    If I took things personally or allowed stuff online to upset me, I would've made a terrible Community moderator for 3DR. ;) Imagine the years of Duke Nukem Forever flack... :D
     

  16. Kolt

    Kolt Ancient Guru

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    I know what you mean, I used to work at Blizz as tech support years ago and some times we'd have to pause and not let some of it get to you as to not put a bad face on the company (and therefore lose your job). Some of the responses back got nasty as you can imagine (with how serious some got with their WoW/Diablo accounts)

    The older I get the more I just don't care and find myself boldly calling out people's BS, and therefor also increasing the chance of mistakenly calling people out at the same time haha.
     
  17. Damien_Azreal

    Damien_Azreal Ancient Guru

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    lol I get it.
    Keeping track of 3DR's communities has been fun over the years. But, thankfully, over the years we've built a very solid community... which has made my job pretty easy. :)
     
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  18. alanm

    alanm Ancient Guru

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    Well finally I'm enjoying the game. Got to the Apprehension level and the 2 monster fishes that were easily dealt with a crossbow. Cant remember if this was in the original HL. The game only began to appeal to me after reaching the surface.
     
  19. emperorsfist

    emperorsfist Maha Guru

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    Yep, the fishes and the diving cage were in the original.
     
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  20. AsiJu

    AsiJu Ancient Guru

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    Aah the crossbow... best way to kill those large alien "grunts" that shoot you with those "insects" or whatever (I'm very well versed in HL lore as you can tell :D )

    Single headshot is enough. IIRC not even the revolver is as effective against them.

    Though it seems they have been made less bullet spongy actually now, as well.

    I'm now at.... where was I again?

    Oh yes just got past the mine field and traversed the "mountains" and now at those sewers or water towers.
    I remember all out war is about to break out soon... now where's me rocket launcher...

    "Gordon Freeman, the only theoretical physicist with a rocket launcher"
     
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