Discussion in 'Frontpage news' started by Hilbert Hagedoorn, Nov 30, 2017.
Greed and denial.
Surely human activity has its consequence upon planet, I don't deny that the friendlier we are, the better our relationship will be. You can't call paradise an aggressive planet, can you? But, I can't accept that everyday we are killing this planet (called Earth) more than ourselves. I mean, relax, we live less years because of new unexpected incurable diseases triggered by our contaminated, inhuman, infected, tainted, unclean and toxic environment. Personally, I would suggest look at planet Mars. I accept the theory that once, people, lived there before OR at the same time with us and they succeeded to destroy their planet. We could transform Earth into Mars, anytime, if we don't protect it. Protecting our home is ironic and laughable, if we destroy our atmosphere every second. Every effort any attempt automatically is erased. We cannot survive.
While we live in 2017, this guy lives in 2117.
Well, my country Portugal on the 1st semester of 2017 achieved 3 month of 100% electricity production from renewable sources, I even saw some wanna be commentators from USA TV saying it was impossible and we were just spreading lies about renewable energies.
So during those 3 month bitcoin mining was emissions free.
global population growth is another factor.... how far down the road do we reach the point of absolute food shortages, and rationing kicks in?
That's not a problem we can't solve. We can control food and water through labs and science. The bad thing is the degradation of what we eat and we drink, artificial food and cleansed water from anything everywhere for any use, I don't think is the best way to live. It is depressing.
I live in a relatively large country on a European scale, with very low population density. More and more previously cultivated fields are now growing only trees because crops are so cheap it doesn't pay off to farm them, instead more is being imported. I don't see this food shortage at all. If such a thing really did happen, I guess forests would be chopped down and crops cultivated once again over here.
I'm with this guy, i would not say any better.
Please people stop with your eco-conspiratory-earth revange bullocks, will you?
Our economy is crap, widespread corruption in the 3 powers, population alienated in soccer, but that does not change the fact that the absolute minority claim$ there i$ no ri$k, "by chance" the bigge$t polluter$ in defense of megacorporation$ hire $cientific mercenaries to fight again$t the absolute majority of the global scientific community.
I don't think you have any idea the huge amount of petrochemicals are used to make fertilizer nor that to enable the crop yields it is unsustainable over time.
I think it's important to keep things in perspective. 29.05 TWh may seem big but it pales in comparison to the estimate 75 TWh that gaming PCs use (https://www.forbes.com/sites/michae...e-energy-consumption-gaming-pcs/#673a32481bff), and that's in 2015 - it'd probably be higher now, as Pascal cards have led to surge in GPUs for gaming. And if you want to criticize mining as being useless then note that gaming is also a largely frivolous activity - it's basically for personal amusement. For gamers to criticize miners for hogging electricity is kind of like the pot calling the kettle black (especially high-end gamers, who overclock and/or use multiple GPUs). Let's show a little humility here, shall we?
Gamers are just mad that prices are being driven up, because miners are willing to spend more moneys than they are
Renewable doesn't mean 'emission free'. Burning wood, is renewable.
Really? Are you advocating the parasites that exploit bitcoins and inflate not only GPU markets, but also energy production costs? Do you want to compare an ordinary player who tends to play a few hours a day (after all, work, study, have families) with a parasite that buys 20 GPUs and keeps the hardware 24 hours a day in full stress? In my opinion, the mining bubble will explode soon, and as it does in financial pyramids, the parasites will sour huge losses.
parasites? each and every one of them?
you do realize there are members here that mine Bitcoin...one in particular is pretty big fella...he might come looking for you!...
And gold mining is in it for themselves as well.
I find it interesting how many self-entitled (not necessarily directing this comment at you, schmidtbag) people are in here who decide that because of something they don't understand or like, others shouldn't be able to do it.
It's all good that we get these power-hungry gaming systems for our enterainment, but you want to make money, instead of being entertained? Well, shame on you, you should be put to death.
One day (likely has already happened) people will be saying the same thing about computers: "How dare you, you don't need to use that extra power for that higher performance stuff, you could get low-end low-power requirements parts and still be able to play that game on the lowest settings! High end gaming/computer enthusiasts need to be banned/regulated!"
Bunch of utter nonsense
As to this article, i'm going to call BS on it. It claims there was a was a 29.98% increase in power consumption in one month. Well, that doesn't add up. To have a 29.98% power increase, the hashrate would also have to have a 29.98% power increase. Not to mention the fact that the websites "Bitcoin energy consumption index" goes pretty much in a straight line upwards, and again, that would have to reflect the hashrate.
In fact, the hashrate (aka power consumption) was the HIGHEST it has ever been on october 25/6th, and has actually gone DOWN since then.
This nonsense "29.98%" increase is probably a result of CHERRY PICKING results. For instance.
10/26/2017 Hashrate: 11.4 ehash
11/16/2017 Hashrate: 8.3 ehash
11/30/2017 Hashrate: 11.3 ehash
Difference? 26.55%, not even the famed "29.98%" increase, and a completely and totally bogus result no matter which way you go about it, since again, the hashrate was about the same more then a month ago.
And if this confuses you, just remember: Hashrate directly relates to power consumption.
^ So much this. People are just being entitled uneducated condemners who wouldn't do the same to other power consumption hobbies. Why? Because while their power consumption hobbies do not earn them money, the ones they are trying to condemn, do. Only explanation? People are jealous they are not making money themselves and instead must become infuriated toward people who are.
The only "parasites" here are the people trying to tell others what they can and can't do. Or do you not understand the definition of parasite? Because i can guarantee you that the definition of parasite is not:
Someone who buys a product with their own money (or AKA according to you inflating the GPU market)
Someone who uses, and pays for the electricity they are allowed to purchase.
So because some people use their GPUs to make money, that makes them parasites? Note that miners validate transactions on the cryptocurrency network and keep the public ledger accurate - the coins they get are the reward for doing this work. A parasite is something that leeches off something else purely for their own benefit (to the detriment of the host), but miners are an integral part of the entire network and the work they do is what allows the blockchain to operate at all.
The point of my post is that gamers, who use their GPU purely to amuse themselves, have no moral high ground against the miners. As a gamer, I do not consider my playing Wolfenstein II to be a more useful or virtuous activity than a miner who mines Ethereum. In both cases, the person gets something out of it (entertainment for gamers, and coins for miners) and there is nothing wrong with that - to each his own.
Sure, but the big difference here is gold actually serves real-world practical uses. Its value is tangible. The energy required to mine for cryptocurrencies yields nothing productive. This is why I'm more in favor of Litecoin, because you're producing something of useful while getting a little something in return.
I see what you're saying, but for people like myself, the issue is people who buy hundreds of GPUs for the sole purpose of generating money. If you want to use your gaming PC to mine for coins, go ahead - I see nothing wrong in that at all. But to make it your business, that's a little scummy.
Well, anyone who says that is just simply a moron. High-end hardware isn't really a whole lot more power-hungry than low-end hardware, so as long as you have v/g/free/adaptive sync on, the power consumption doesn't go up that much. In fact for some situations, high-end hardware doing "simple" tasks are more efficient.
I think the implication was the amount of hardware dedicated to mining went up 29.98%. So yeah, the amount of watts needed per platform hasn't gone up, but the amount of platforms have gone up.
Again, there's a difference between hobby and your job. I have a friend whose hobby is to do business consultations for a small fee, but that's not how he makes his living. Using your gaming PC to collect bitcoins while its idle is totally reasonable and just a hobby. Even retiring a gaming PC for such a thing could be just a hobby. But the people who everyone is complaining about are waaaay beyond hobby level; this is their life investment.
I personally don't think of miners as being parasites, because like you said, they don't fit the definition. And yes, they are allowed to do what they want because they're not doing anything illegal. However, as much as they have a right to mine, people do have a right to complain about them, and there are valid points as to why miners (again, the serious ones, not the hobbyists) are a problem. They're expending a scary amount of finite energy (keep in mind, most miners are in places that use fossil fuels) on something that does literally nothing but give the person money. The currency may be finite, but it doesn't physically exist and its value is arguably arbitrary. If these currencies ever completely lose their value, that energy will have been a tremendous waste.
On the climate change topic I'm of the opinion that the only constant is change. And up to now it's not caused by humans. We have about 400ppm CO2 now in the lower parts of the atmosphere, in greenhouses they bring the CO2 to around 1500ppm because the plants grow better and produce more. Sea levels haven't gone up.
But that's no reason for us to keep polluting the environment we live in and off. Look in Beijing, a couple of miles visibility on a clear day. And in Japan we still have 3 melted down nuclear reactors leaking uncontrollably into the ocean and there is little we can do about it so far. IMO the human caused global warming is a distraction of the real problems and also mean to give the powers that be more control, specifically over your energy usage.
Also I'm pretty sure several clean energy generators have been invented in the past century that are being withheld because it would limit the control over energy compared to what we have today.
One obvious example is a car that was developed in 1973 during a fuel efficiency contest organised and funded by oil company Shell. They modified a 1959 Opel P1 and achieved a mileage of 376mpg/160km per liter. And that was 45 years ago with a car that was already 14 years old. http://www.376mpg.com/
documentary with several clean and super efficient energy generators.
How is it scummy to buy a product you're allowed to buy, however much you want to buy for that matter since there are no legal limits on them, and to use them however you want?
^ That's a GPU folding at home beast that people have been buying many GPUs to create. But no one has a problem with that.
Now, before you say "well, folding@home and etc. hasn't driven the price of GPUs up"
Well, sure, because it doesn't pay you to do it (though i hear that has kinda changed?) If it did pay you, and people flocked to buy GPUs the same way they are now, then would you be saying the same thing? Or because it's folding@home, you wouldn't? Both are completing tasks, the only difference someone could say about them is that they don't care about what task is being completed by one of them, to complain about one of them.
It didn't though. More then likely the dip in performance was caused by segwit2x, when people stopped mining bitcoin, and mined the failed bitcoin hard fork. Once that failed, that same hardware that stopped, went back to bitcoin.
Unless they are not talking about bitcoin, only, but the problem with that is they have been talking about bitcoin, only, when it comes to watt usage.
If mining, itself, increased by 29.98%, i could almost see that as possible, due to D3s, but to be honest, i still doubt that figure, and would find it very difficult for someone to go to all the different kind of cryptocurrencies out there and compare each and every single one of them, and see how much they all increase, and then somehow get the increase from that.
And why is that wrong? What part of that is wrong? There's a business to be had, and people are doing just that, with it. My hobby is building computers, generally for people i know, with very little added on top. I don't really make money on it, but what would be the problem if i did? Why would that ever, ever be a problem?
It's simply unjustified for people to be upset that people are trying to make a living within a system that they CAN make a living.
I have 1 ASIC, soon to be 2, the first one is making me around $600 a month, not including inflation. The 2nd one will probably make me around $1500 a month, not including inflation. If i get, say 2 more ASICs, and am making around $4000 a month, that is making a living. My power bill for them would also be around $200 or less a month.
There's nothing wrong with that.
That being said, GPU mining in my opinion is mostly a lost cause. Its too high of cost for too little of ROI. I, personally, don't understand why they do it.
And that's where your mindset is wrong. It's only doing nothing, because you want to believe its doing nothing. If one day cryptocurrency just disappears, oh well too bad. People tried to do something and ended up with nothing in the end. But this happens all across the world. Companies try and make products, spend money, spend power, resources(minerals etc.) on products day in and day out, that never see the light of day, and many times never even get transferred to a different product.
But obviously, not all do. And whose to say cryptocurrency(as a whole) is one of those? You? Anyone else on this forum? Am i missing something, or can someone here see the future? See what cryptocurrency becomes? No? So really what people are getting upset about is something they see as worthless, either because they don't believe in it, or don't understand it, and want to, instead, tell everyone else what they are doing is worthless, before they actually know, since obviously they can not see the future? Yeah, i seem to remember people saying bitcoin won't ever live past 2012, or get over $100, or for that matter, $1, and that people would expect it'd just die within 6 months years and years ago.
Aswell, people said that about smart phones ones. Heck, they said it about netflix streaming, redbox, and so many other huge things that are in our lives today. "Oh that'll never be relevant, don't get behind it, it's worthless technology that isn't useful now and won't be useful in the future"