Basics of Watercooling

Discussion in 'Links' started by shadow42489, Jul 15, 2004.

  1. G L

    G L Don Juan

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  2. G L

    G L Don Juan

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    On radiators. Besides the custom radiators from the likes of HWlabs, there is the alternative of automobile heatercores. The advantage is that they're cheap, and seem to be at least as good. I've been playing around with the general motors 2-199 shown here:

    http://www.overclockers.com/tips1031/

    And performance seems roughly the same as my HWlabs black ice extreme 2 pictured here:

    http://www.hwlabs.com/products/blackicextreme2.html

    The price advantage can be seen here:

    http://www.dangerdenstore.com/product.php?productid=2&cat=13&page=1
    http://www.dangerdenstore.com/product.php?productid=48&cat=14&page=1

    Apparently you can buy the heatercore at an autoparts store for even less, though the DD offering does have the advantage of premodded fittings for 1/2" or 3/8".

    The disadvantage is size, actually a bit larger than 2x 120 mm fans in the case of the GM 2-199, and mounting, as it was not made to mount 120 mm fans and thus has no holes drilled to accomodate them.

    However, if you plan to put the radiator outside the case anyway, and don't mind a duct-tape shroud to affix the fans, then this is an excellent way to get a high-performance radiator on a budget.
     
  3. G L

    G L Don Juan

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    Here's a good review of a TEC (peltier) waterblock, shows both installation and performance:

    http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=Nzg5

    Results here:

    http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=Nzg5LDQ=

    Looks like the 3.2 EE at 3.69 GHz was 8 degrees celcius with the TEC and closer to 58 degrees without, so that makes for a rather hefty 50 degree reduction. Also shows the benefit of adding a second radiator, went from one dual 120 mm thermochill to that plus a single 120 mm model--that reduced temperatures about 3 degrees celsius at the highest 3.96 GHz OC.

    Of course, condensation results at these sort of temps, hence the insulation:

    http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=Nzg5LDM=

    Apparently another trick is to paint the area around the socket with silicon sealant, both for a bit more insulation and that if condensation does result there, it won't just immediately fry. Of course, you can't paint the whole board, so the benefit of this is presumbably limited. Though the condensation risk will only be around the bottom of the TEC and the immediate vicinity, everything else including the water will end up hotter.

    Here's an example of the various TEC products:

    http://www.crazypc.com/products/cooling/watercooling.htm#peltier

    It should be possible to use a TEC with any waterblock, as long as it uses springs to hold it down, as the TEC/etc. will increase the height of the waterblock. I believe the idea is waterblock->TEC>copper plate>processor. Foam is used around the assembly and socket on top, another block on bottom, and silicon sealant on the motherboard around the socket if you like as well.

    TECs move heat, but they also add heat as well, and I believe you can expect the added heat to be equal to the wattage of the TEC. So if you use a 200 watt TEC, the hot side will have the heat from the processor/etc. (lets say 150 watts) plus the wattage of the TEC, so in this case 350 watts. This is an enormous amount of heat and requires a good watercooling setup, I'd say at least a dual-120 mm fan radiator or heatercore. This also put quite a bit of strain on the power supply, hence the supplementary power supply. Another option is to simply use a secondary PC power supply, but do a bit wiring so it is either always on or turns on with the primary power supply.

    A TEC setup will not cool as well as a proper phase-change kit (prometia, vapochill), and will end up costing nearly the same amount (WC:$250,PSU:$100+,TEC/etc:$50+ = $400+). However, the advantage of a TEC setup over phase-change is that multiple blocks is no problem, whereas you would need a seperate phase-change unit per block. However, if you do use multiple TEC waterblocks you may want to limit the wattage of the TECs unless you're willing to buy multiple radiators, as each TEC can end up adding hundreds of watts of heat.
     
  4. G L

    G L Don Juan

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    Well, I've discovered the magic of imageshack.us since this thread was started, so here are some much-belated pictures of my water-cooling rig:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    What we have here is a Danger Den TDX waterblock, Hydor (AC) L30 pump, Hardware Labs Black Ice extreme 2, and 1/2" ID Tygon tubing.

    The hole was cut with a dremal which can be had for about $40-$60 or so for a basic kit complete with some blades. The radiator is retained with rivots, for which you can buy a hand-tool which is quite cheap. I had to bore the holes for the rivots first, so a power drill is required as well. Long bolts would have worked as too and could retain the fans on the other side as well, as the metal fins of the radiator can be dislodged slightly where the bolts would go through without really affecting it.

    I lost 2 drive bays in the process, though I recouped one by using it for a fan controller, which is only two inches in depth. I probably would have lost one but I mounted the radiator the wrong way, with the nozzles facing the front of the case. They extend the furthest, thus blocking the most drive bays.

    The verticle tube going up the middle is called a T-line, its used for filling up the loop and bleeding the air out. I found out the hard way they're difficult to bleed unless located at the highest point on the case, but by physically manipulating the case I was able to fill it completely and get all the air out. The other alternative is a resevoir.

    As I said an automotive heatercore is a great and much cheaper alternative to a PC radiator, but not with this mounting configuration. Mounting the radiator where I did means it must fit within the 5.25" drive cage, and the most popular GM heatercore it too wide by .5".

    The other problem I had occured when I upgraded my 350 watt Antec PS for the PC Power and Cooling 510 watt. The latter was longer by an inch or so, and now collides with the radiator. This could have been avoided if I had had the forsight to mount the radiator further forward.

    As you can see the pump blocks PCI slots. I can still fit my PCI pump relay card and ATI TV tuner cards in the bottom slots there, but anything more substantial would be a problem. Getting a full-tower case would be the surist solution to that little problem.

    I have a single-block loop, as you can imagine multiple blocks in this space with this thickness of tubing could be a serious issue. The solution would be once again to get a larger case, or less ideally use thinner more pliable tubing.
     

  5. G L

    G L Don Juan

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    Here's a good review that shows performance of several low-end kits:

    http://www.a1-electronics.net/Heatsinks/2004/3rd/Speeze_AtlanticWave_pg2.shtml

    You'll notice that they all lose to the Thermalright SLK-948U, except an Aquarius 3 (over $200) which has been modded to include a second radiator.

    So I think if you have $150 or less to spend, probably the best thing to do is get something massive such as one of these:

    http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/20050607/index.html

    It will be cheaper than low-end water-cooling, and probably perform as well if not better.
     
  6. thor1182

    thor1182 Active Member

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    This thread is a bit old, but who can resist a chance to show off their computer some more with some Photoshop touchup ?

    Note: Key at end

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Key:
    Red arrows denote water flow.
    1 & 2: 12mm radiator fans. (These fans draw air up out of the case and act like a chimney creating air flow through the case),
    3: Water reservoir and pump assembly.
    4 & 5: Push and pull water pumps
    6: Radiator
    7: CPU water block
    8: Y-splitters, splits/joins the larger tubing line into two smaller lines to run through the GPU blocks
    9: Video Card Water Blocks
    10: GPU cooler
    11: Video RAM block
     
  7. G L

    G L Don Juan

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    No, that's perfect, especially how you labeled it all. This also illustrates nicely the different ways to hook up multiple blocks. So it looks like the tubing to the video card blocks is a different width. Is it 1/4" for those and 3/8" for the rest? Also, post you temps, I'm curious how it handles a 4000+ and 2x 6800 GTs.
     
  8. thor1182

    thor1182 Active Member

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    off the top of my head your correct about the tubbing sizes.

    With how everything is clocked now
    GPU: 430 / mem: 1.14GHz

    CPU: 2.625GHz / FSB 218 MHz
    (Cool 'n quiet enabled)

    Idle:
    CPU: 36 +/- 1 C
    GPU: Amb: 39 +/- C Core: 55 +/-

    Load (after HL2 has been running for a bit)
    CPU: 40 +/- 1 C
    GPU: Amb: 43 +/- 2 C Core: 60 +/- 5
    I'm not so sure on GPU temps on load becuase I don't check them much, but the CPU temp from the case sensor is right there in front of the case
     
  9. G L

    G L Don Juan

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    Ah, but water temp and CPU temp are two different things... what's the monitoring program say? Try speedfan (in the downloads section) if you don't have a decent one already.
     
  10. thor1182

    thor1182 Active Member

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    the prob sits right next to the CPU and touching the bottom of the cooler. When I compared the temp that the prob was reading to what my motherboard utility said they were withing a 1 degree margin of each other, so its pretty close.
     

  11. G L

    G L Don Juan

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    If anyone is looking for that perfect watercooling case, look no further:

    http://www.neoseeker.com/Hardware/Products/gigabyte_3d_aurora/

    The dual 120-mm exhaust fans would be perfect for a nice-sized radiator, and it probably wouldn't be too hard to set up one that exhausted through the side panel. That's two dual-120 mm radiators, and you could even then take a dremel to the top and mount a third, though that's getting a bit excessive. It also has ports that would allow an external radiator and still use the larger tubing, and if you have an AC pump you could route out the power cord in that manner as well.

    http://www.thermaltake.com/xaserCase/taichi/taichirmenu.htm

    This one is also promising, but though certainly not on the same level as the Gigabyte model. This has a single 120 mm exhaust and once again the grate on the side. The notion of mounting the radiator directly on the side panel is interesting, though may not work well with thicker 1/2" ID tubing that is not nearly as pliable as the 1/4" ID tubing shown here. The bottom panel also has a mesh on it and could accomodate a radiator.

    The cooler master stacker would also work very well. It has the same mesh on the bottom as the Thermaltake tai chi, and has space underneath the motherboard tray so that a radiator and/or pump wouldn't block and PCI slots.

    http://www.neoseeker.com/Hardware/Products/coolermaster_stacker/
     
  12. chickenRUN

    chickenRUN Ancient Guru

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  13. G L

    G L Don Juan

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    Nice... two questions, did you have to mod the case to fit the radiator in there? And what's with the couplings there? Oh yeah, nice idea with the zip ties, no problems there I presume?
     
  14. chickenRUN

    chickenRUN Ancient Guru

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    Nope problems runs fine, only different with the radiator is that I needed to take out the lower drive cage in order for it to fit.
     
  15. shadow42489

    shadow42489 Active Member

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    Well I'll be...I forgot I even wrote this... I hope I've helped some people...and with the mass amount of views...I'm assuming I have. Also, I appreciate the little bits and pieces people have added on, you've made this topic very helpful.
     

  16. G L

    G L Don Juan

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  17. cornbreadbreath

    cornbreadbreath Master Guru

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    I've just got a general warning about a newer and even cheaper "Non-Conductive" coolant, PrimoChill ICE.

    Though it claims non-conductivity, it actually isn't. I spilled a little on my X850XT and even after thoroughly drying it and cleaning it up, it baked the card and ruined it. There was no contamination, either - the card had no dust and the spill came directly from the bottle. You can check out some reviews across the net about it, and those that do conductivity tests find that it is significantly more conductive than other coolants.

    Just a warning, that's all. You're better off spending a bit more on Fluid XP or MCT-5 if you want non-conductive liquid in your watercooling loop.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2005
  18. AJ²06

    AJ²06 Ancient Guru

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    OMG..... I got some stuff growing in my water lines... ugh. Im gonn ahave to clean em out :mad: What additive or what do u seggest I use from now on? Currently Im using the stuff that came with the kit but now its run out. THANX

    EDIT: And I just noticed I ahve some more "stuff" on the bottom of my res... eeeeew... what the crap!!!! DIE!! :hit: :hit: :hit: :hit: :hit:
     
  19. G L

    G L Don Juan

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    Yeah, that happened to me too... Water-wetter kept that from happening to me again, but I'd imagine most any additive except dye will be toxic enough for that purpose.
     
  20. AJ²06

    AJ²06 Ancient Guru

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    THANX... I will look into water wetter... what do u reccommend out of these:
    http://xoxide.com/water-cooling-coolant-dye.html

    If u dont see any one there thats good I can try the watter wetter... even tho its harder to find around here....
     

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