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Autopilot disabled on the Tesla Model 3 in Europe

Discussion in 'Frontpage news' started by Hilbert Hagedoorn, Feb 8, 2019.

  1. Hilbert Hagedoorn

    Hilbert Hagedoorn Don Vito Corleone Staff Member

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    Tesla started delivering the Model 3 electric cars to customers in Europe. However, the driver assistance package Autopilot is disabled, even if customers have paid for the additional 5,200 euros. The...

    Autopilot disabled on the Tesla Model 3 in Europe
     
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  2. fantaskarsef

    fantaskarsef Ancient Guru

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    Small typo at the end of the first paragraph. :)
     
  3. FOG>Daheee

    FOG>Daheee Active Member

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    I just bought 10 for 4000 Euros each, not a bad deal. If Tesla refuse to supply me then I will be taking HH to court for the extra money.
     
  4. Hilbert Hagedoorn

    Hilbert Hagedoorn Don Vito Corleone Staff Member

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    Yeah, let me add a zero .. just in case ;)
     
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  5. schmidtbag

    schmidtbag Ancient Guru

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    So, I'm not too familiar with how the EU is governed, but why is it that the Dutch regulatory authority gets to decide what happens in the rest of the EU?
     
  6. Dribble

    Dribble Active Member

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    The way the EU works basically any country can block anything, which with that many countries means it's hard to push through anything (e.g. a trade agreement). The EU's general solution to this is the eurocrats do it and don't really let anyone who was actually elected know what's going on. The bureaucrats need to be *paid* to do this for you (hence EU HQ being surrounded by every big business). Clearly Tesla didn't bother to pay, and if you don't pay you don't get.
     
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  7. rl66

    rl66 Ancient Guru

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    The EU Law is the main thing and on top of that there is individual country law if it doesn't interfere with EU law.
    This is the normal way...
    BUT on top of that there is exeption as for exemple in country that is not EU but use EU law as a service from EU country with local law or not (mainly small fiscal paradise), and from country that is in EU but doesn't want to use some of EU law.
    So each law goes from country to EU and back (and i don't event talk about burocratie...).
    At the end there is million of EU wasted each year just to have this movement of information.

    Right now we are very far from the "ideal" solution presented at start. We are more like in Athena before the lost against Sparta.
     
  8. Size_Mick

    Size_Mick Master Guru

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    Well, hey, at least it's not "Ottopilot" :p

     
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  9. gx-x

    gx-x Maha Guru

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    Autonomous driving on vehicles is not allowed in EU. Not just for Tesla, for everyone. One of the reasons BWM, Audi or Merc dont have autonomous driving mode.

    PS. It's still in the test phase, and even there, a driver must not let go of the wheel.
     
  10. Size_Mick

    Size_Mick Master Guru

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    Seriously, they should get rid of autopilot entirely. The thing is, it has to be one or the other: full control by the driver, or full control by the computer. Anything in between is just asking for trouble. It makes me question the wisdom of the people over at Tesla who thought it would be a pretty neat idea.
     

  11. Denial

    Denial Ancient Guru

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    The stats show that turning on Autopilot, even in it's infancy, reduced total number of traffic fatalities per mile on the Model S. That's similar to MobilEye's stats for AEB and similar systems. While you get a moron every once in a while sleeping at the wheel with autopilot on, overall it's doing far more good than harm.

    I think there should be some kind of regulatory body governing it's use - but so far, if correctly implemented, it seems fine.
     
  12. sykozis

    sykozis Ancient Guru

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    Neither of your solutions, presents the best possible solution. Drivers become distracted, resulting in accidents. Computers can malfunction, resulting in accidents. There has to be a middle ground for safety reasons. The driver has to be able to take control of the vehicle in the event of a malfunction. If we program the autonomous system to shutdown the vehicle in the event of a malfunction, we're risking the lives of others on the road. So, we either increase the cost of vehicles by adding additional "Features" so every vehicle can communicate with every other vehicle, street sign, road marking, etc....or we go for the middle ground and allow "part time" systems.
     
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  13. Dribble

    Dribble Active Member

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    That doesn't work. A human can only stay focused only if they are in control (i.e. driving). If the computer is driving then most human's just can't pay close attention for any amount of time. Hence if the computer goes wrong the car will crash before the human takes over. You can do it the other way around - human drives, computer can take over in an emergency, which is what a number of cars have had for years (e.g. Volvo famously has a record of zero pedestrian deaths in the XC90 since 2002 due to it's hazard detection technology).

    Imo - the problem is tesla called it auto pilot which suggests (to most people other then airline pilots) it's going to drive you. In fact it's just a glorified hazard detection/lane assist such as is available in a number of makes of car. It is a long way from being a true autonomous vehicle. If they had just called it super lane assist or something then it would have been fine in Europe.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
  14. gx-x

    gx-x Maha Guru

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    No it wouldn't. New (2019) Audi A8 has lane assist and it's disabled because it's against the rules to use it.
     
  15. Dribble

    Dribble Active Member

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    There are level's 1-5 of autonomy, going from something at 1 to fully self driving at 5, 4 is self driving in certain area's, e.g. you could get urban taxi's at level 4. Tesla autopilot is level 2 exactly the same as volvo's, merc's, etc which are all enabled. As I understand it the Audi A8 is level 3 which Europe doesn't have regs for so it works at level 2 right now, it's not disabled.

    Level's 1-3 have the driver in control, and imo level 3 is the most dodgy as it is the one the seems most prone to go wrong in that it's the classic the case of what I said above where the car seems to drive itself but in fact the human is still meant to be in control and respond in a fraction of a second if the computer goes wrong.
     
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  16. gx-x

    gx-x Maha Guru

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    I am no expert, all I know, in Europe (EU), even for testing (authorized) driver must keep hands on steering wheel at all times. Watched the Audi A8 2019 review, dude said it has everything, but disabled bcs EU law.
    Keeping hands on steering wheel defies the purpose of autonomous driving. Especially in USA traffic jams where you should be able to just sit back, relax and let the AI move 2m by 2m in straight line for hours...
     
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  17. sykozis

    sykozis Ancient Guru

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    In the US, people can't even keep focus on driving when they have control of the vehicle....

    Lane keep assist, hazard detection, and similar systems improve safety. Under normal conditions, they prevent the driver from killing others on the road while playing candy crush, texting, etc on their smartphones while driving.

    It's all about safety....

    Traffic in most of the US is not like that.
     
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  18. gx-x

    gx-x Maha Guru

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    I was of course talking specifically about the part parts where traffic isn't like that. Like, Nantucket.
    It's like saying bad driving and accidents happen only when and where they happen, but not everywhere.

    Thanks.
     
  19. The Laughing Ma

    The Laughing Ma Ancient Guru

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    So give them a system that justifies and lets them get away with not paying attention. I've said this for a while automate a system and tell a person that it is automatic and watch as they suddenly loose the ability to use it through their own stupidity. Auto lights are a great example, morons driving in heavy rain because they are under the impression that the car just turns the lights on itself or worse still in fog where they have no clue how to turn the fogs on because they have had the car for two years and it 'just turns the lights on by itself'.

    Automatic safety systems should be passive and only step in when the driver makes a mistake, the way systems such as ABS and ESP work or we could go down the route the scholar Clarkson suggested a few years ago, cars should be fitted with an explosive that blows the car up if the driver so much as steps out of line. Wonder how quickly people would make driving their number one focus priority rather than 3rd or 4th behind talking, drinking / eating and playing on their mobiles?
     
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  20. sykozis

    sykozis Ancient Guru

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    Well, my car automatically turns on the headlights whenever the wipers turn on....if the headlight switch is set to "auto". I drive with my headlights on at all times anyway, so I just have 2 methods for turning my headlights on at night or in the rain.... It's my belief that headlamps should default to on if the engine is running....period. Cars with "daytime running lights" irritate me because vehicle owners are generally too stupid to figure out that they need to turn the headlights on at night. I understand the premise, but the "daytime running lights" feature is a safety hazard when the vehicle is operated by an incompetent driver.

    Personally, I'd like to see a feature where if the driver starts using their smartphone, they immediately get hit with 120V@10A... I bet it would stop people from texting and driving...or browsing the web while driving...if they knew doing so would kill them. And yes, I've seen people doing both.

    It seems the more "safety features" we give drivers, the more dangerous they become to everyone else on the road. So, features that would enforce good driving habits would be preferable to a system that simply does everything on it's own, seeing as how automated systems can cause other issues when they fail.
     

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