Apple sues EPIC, accuses developer of theft with Fortnite

Discussion in 'Frontpage news' started by Hilbert Hagedoorn, Sep 9, 2020.

  1. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Ancient Guru

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    Even if MS held total stranglehold over what gets installed on windows, it would not be monopoly for x86(_64) platform.
    You have linux available in so many flavors.

    Apple simply does not have monopoly on any single platform which is cellphone, tablet, notebook, ... Because you have alternatives.
     
  2. gx-x

    gx-x Ancient Guru

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    So, can Epic return all the money back to customers, and Apple returning their 30% of the take to same customers also? I mean, I am being cynical, but it seems Apple is complaining that they made 30% off of 600 million, or on top of it, doesn't matter, and complaining about making money regardless. Epic is doing the same thing. If I were Judge, I would order them both to pay all "winnings" as a penalty + lawyers and court fees. See how they like that one for a change, maybe they get serious in the future.
     
  3. Clouseau

    Clouseau Ancient Guru

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    Apple knows it is going to lose its strangle hold on the Apple App Store if this goes to court. Their latest actions prove this. In their continuing battle, Apple is pulling the plug on access to their sign-in system. Therefore Epic has informed that anyone who uses the sign-in
    feature with an Apple account will need to change to another choice because Apple is closing off that possibility. This also included all Unreal Engine 5 accounts. There is a reason Apple does not just lay back and let this case play out in court.
     
  4. PrMinisterGR

    PrMinisterGR Ancient Guru

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    Like most companies of their size, and even smaller. Nvidia, Qualcomm etc, this is normal actually.

    You cannot "buy" OS X. It's part of a bundle with Apple hardware, therefore you cannot resell it.

    If they are this terrible, they wouldn't be so successful.

    Epic is full of crap. They participated in Apple's walled garden until they had the critical mass to try and basically extort a different price. The only part of this where they have a point is that Apple treats different subscription services in their platfom differently. Netflix has an in-app subscription, for example, same as Spotify. Epic has a point about differential treatment, but they forget it's in Apple's discretion to enforce the contract or not.

    Every piece of software you touch has parts of it written on a MacBook. Apple's platform is the platform of choice for development, with the possible exception of games. As long as the new CPUs run open source software well (and they will, since it will be recompiled for them), and hit their performance targets, nothing will change.
     
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  5. Fender178

    Fender178 Ancient Guru

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    Epic has no legs to stand on in this case because they are a monopoly as well because they have that stupid timed exclusive for PC games which also an anti-consumer tactic. Also Epic broke the terms of the contract by refusing to what they themselves agreed to pay Apple and Google as well. Epic themselves choose to be apart of Apple's closed Eco System so they have nobody to blame but themselves. Tim Sweeney is nothing but a huge crybaby thinking that if he whines and cries enough that he will get his way. It don't work that way and Sweeney is going to find this out the hard way when Apple wins this lawsuit.
     
  6. XenthorX

    XenthorX Ancient Guru

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    When you buy a iMac, you own it, every each of it, you can install and do whatever you want with it.

    When you buy an iPhone, you actually rent it from Apple, you can install what Apple allows.

    Personally, i'm against this philosophy, PC/Mac drove the world innovation for 3 decades without this middle-man big corporation oversight.


    Edit: there's really countless world innovation from the PC/Mac that could not have happened on the iPhone ecosystem given Apple oversight. The internet Web Browser (and its payments solutions, paypal etc...), Peer to Peer transfers, ... Facebook could totally have been blocked by Apple and Apple would have created an alternative.... This whole philosophy is against innovation.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2020
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  7. suty455

    suty455 Master Guru

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    The trouble is the Town has a wall once you get behind that wall by handing over your Money you cannot leave nor can you look outside the wall at other prospective houses or even alter your own house by for example buying a lawn mower from out of Town, as if the lawn mower maker does not pay the wall keeper they cannot enter Town that makes everything you have to import really expensive, but you dont have a choice everything you buy has to be taxed and paid for to maintain the wall which they tell you keeps the riff raff out....but does it really?

    Apple is the worst company ever they even tried to copyright a rounded rectangle ffs I had one (Iphone) for Work and it crashed regularly and the battery life was a joke, one Day the Isheep will wake up and realise they are walking in Bullshit, then they will move to another field . Sheep are dumb where one goes others follow.
     
  8. Clouseau

    Clouseau Ancient Guru

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    This is how Apple plays ball. They strong arm competition to death in hopes nothing makes it to court. Because once it makes it that far, Apple itself has no confidence in winning. That is why the attempts at strong arm tactics. Hate Epic, does not matter. Apple's strangle hold will crumble.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2020
  9. The Laughing Ma

    The Laughing Ma Ancient Guru

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    Lets face it folks if this was some small time third party developer with a 100 selling app would Apple even have batted an eye lid. No the only reason Apple are even give this a squirt of p*ss is because

    1). It's Fortnite and they are now loosing a sh*t ton of money from it's removal. (Yes I get that given Apples worth it may not seem like an issue but to greedy morally corrupt corporations a sh*t ton of money is, at the end of the day, a sh*t ton of money they would rather have over anyone else having it.)

    and

    2) With Tencent backing them Epic may actually have the foundations to give Apple a significant slap so they have to be seen to be doing something.

    The long term goal and win for everyone is that both corporations get told to wind their necks in and stop acting like playground children having a dispute over a football however given that Apple is Apple and that currently America is on a bit of a punish anything that is not 100% American trend I suspect that Apple may end up winning this, even if they deserve not too.

    Let me be clear my position on this is simple if Apple store is of such quality and their support of such high value they should have no issue allowing other stores sell their wares on their hardware. if it is THAT good then developers and buyers will choose to pay the extra fees that Apple demands fopr their 'support'. I suspect that Apple however Apple do very little once the software is on their store front and expect to get paid for doing very little.
     
  10. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Ancient Guru

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    Mr. Victimhood has hard life. Everyone knows how Apples devices operate long before they get 1st one. And if they still make decision to get 1 or 5, they always can admit this mistake. And suck it.

    And that means, people can always leave. What makes unhappy people stay is either weak mind or weak heart.
     

  11. PrMinisterGR

    PrMinisterGR Ancient Guru

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    From this exchange it sounds to me like Apple is actually right. Epic asked for a parallel store with the same rights to the OS as Apple's store, that would be obviously bypass everything else. Apple is wrong to not allow random apps with third party payment systems in (although it allows Netflix and Spotify, for example), but allowing software side loading while their whole platform is concentrated on privacy is kind of self-defeating.

    Epic is asking for way too much, and I wouldn't want to have the Tencent store with full access on my platform either.
     
  12. Clouseau

    Clouseau Ancient Guru

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    The problem was that Apple went straight to strongarm tactics without even offering a counter proposal; no negotiations what so ever. If they would have opened up a dialog without first having their mouth piece vomit over it all, do not think Epic would have stood a chance.
     
  13. vbetts

    vbetts Don Vincenzo Staff Member

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    So I see people bring up the idea that not having different sources of applications on iOS is bad, boo Apple, boo monopoly, boo forcing to use a single ecosystem. Let's look at a few key things though.

    - You buy an iPhone, you buy it knowing it only has the App Store. You don't want that, don't buy it.

    - Android of course can side load applications or use different app stores, but this does not equal out to be 100% safe or effective. Let's take a look at a few alternative stores for Android. There's of course Amazon, which already has a good amount of the Play store applications already, and instead use amazon services. Replacing Google with Amazon, you're not really don't that much better at that point...Getjar, which has older applications as well as a lot of bad clones, which really aside from Amazon most Android Play store alternatives are about the same in this aspect. So let's just talk about side loading applications, applications that do not have to follow any privacy policy or protection. There's also no quality assurance by sideloading apps. Having your app in the app store also gives good highlights, reviews, and almost free advertising. It's an infrastructure, why would you not want to participate in what seems like a give some get back situation? You mean to tell me that famous applications like Waze, Tinder, Snapchat, Netflix, Hulu, Amazon, are all hurting badly from these fees? You spend money to make money.

    - While I agree, fees that both Apple and Google take from devs can be a little high, and it seems Apple is pretty selective on who it lets slide on their own contract, which I'm not saying it's right. However Epic knowingly did what they can to break contract and then made it public. They aren't doing this for the good of developers or anything near that matter, they're doing this for themselves. Going back to how Epic did this on purpose and then made it public, neither company is in the right but of course Apple is going to retaliate. crap, I'd retaliate too if someone did the equivalent of spitting in my face like Epic did to Apple.

    Not that I was ever against it, but Epic is the same company that used money to strongarm themselves in the position of gaining exclusives for their store. They're big companies, it's not uncommon to see any company use strongarm tactics or not offer compromises.
     
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  14. Astyanax

    Astyanax Ancient Guru

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    Your rationalism is apologistic to a degree, the courts job is to weed out such arguments and establish the rights of the citizen above that of the corporate entity where the usage of personal property is concerned, and it does so whenever it strikes down a eula or license agreement for over reaching.

    The IOS platform and its single source for applications is over reaching and an illegal restriction of the products owners rights to use his device a he see's fit.

    You can get hung up on epics greed but trying to argue for apple's standpoint is foolhardy, the ramifications of the results of the case will have effects for the rights of users to have full control over their device in the long run.

    The fact is, apple's laptop platform has less restrictions in place and this nullifies any argument apple can make about doing it to serve as security or privacy.

    The entire ecosystem of Apple devices should have a flat tier of software support.
     
  15. Clouseau

    Clouseau Ancient Guru

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    First, why retaliate? Does nothing but make both parties look feeble and childish. Repercussion of not following what was stated in the contract gets Fortnite kicked off the platform. Done end of story. The problem is that Apple took it too far. There was no reason to ban Unreal Engine. All Google did was throw out Fortnite from the PlayStore. Apple is now also banning the ability to login to the Epic Store using an Apple account. All this points to an abuse of position and power.

    Using money for gaining exclusives...Why is it no one remembers Blockbuster Video? During their whole life, they held the VHS market hostage. They had exclusive rights to be the only ones to have initial releases for six months to a year before anyone else could get them. Hollywood blasted back when DVDs hit the scene. Blockbuster tried for the same kind of exclusivity deal they had with VHS. The studios said no way. So saying Epic's use of cash being a strongarm tactic does not fly. Exclusivity as much as it is misunderstood has always been a way to generate traffic. Depending on the product, exclusivity can work for the provider but it is always a win for the manufacturer. Did EA sign on with Epic...nope, they are in Microsoft's corner. Notice, after a year's time the games that were exclusive to Epic are then offered on Steam and still at full price. Everyone gets to have the game on their preferred launcher and the publishers and developers make a killing. So how is it bad for competition. All it does is make it inconvenient for the stubborn, unyielding, and "principled." Notice, for Microsoft it was because IE was already preinstalled. It did not matter that everyone under the sun had the ability and freedom to choose a different web browser. Apple is operating in the same vacuum that Microsoft did with the exception Apple does not allow a choice. Does not matter how seedy and unsavory the alternatives would be. It is the simple fact that they would be there and the individual has the freedom to use the device anyway they see fit; stay within the safety net Apple provides or not.

    EDIT: Why bring up security when security is meaningless for the masses. Just ask Blackberry. The only proven platform that worked security wise was the use of their backend software in conjunction with their phones. They still remain the only platform allowed to run on the entire DOD network. So security is moot as a topic.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2020

  16. It won’t go to trial. Any good lawyer will prove Apple agreed to it and knew the extent of the product.
    BlackBerry legacy OS?

    BlackBerry now runs Android OS
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 11, 2020
  17. I feel like agreeing with most of what you’re saying but also feel like you can’t have your cake and eat it too. With whom much is given much is required. The next generation won’t be asked to be born into the world that Apple is creating for them in certain cases. In others choice is just an illusion of the past where free market became indentured servitude
     
  18. Clouseau

    Clouseau Ancient Guru

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    Ok, had to update myself. Blackberry's UEM software received that honor recently. Cellphones are a different story. Apple devices are allowed to connect but that is it. Samsung (knox hardened only) devices are the only one's mentioned for use within classified areas. If someone can find information regarding Apple devices within classified areas speak up. Otherwise the gist of what I was saying still stands as far as Apple and security.
     
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  19. yeah. Not to be funny but President Donald Trump’s iPhone circa 2016/2017
     
  20. sykozis

    sykozis Ancient Guru

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    Epic is far from having a monopoly. Game studios can easily tell Epic to shove it and release their games on Steam, UPlay or the Microsoft store. Epic can't force an exclusivity deal if game studios refuse to go along with it. The problem isn't Epic, it's that game studios are willing to sign such a deal and people are willing to reward those studios for making such a decision. Companies do stupid crap because people will ignorantly defend and support them.....
     

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