Anti-Lag Thread

Discussion in 'Videocards - AMD Radeon Drivers Section' started by Eastcoasthandle, Jul 10, 2019.

  1. HiAlgoBoost

    HiAlgoBoost Member

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    In case of a CPU-bound game, or a game with internal FPS limiter that ends up not being GPU-bound - you will have the minimal lag possible, regardless of flip chain size or RAL. But, of course, you need to run without VSync, in exclusive fullscreen mode and on a FreeSync monitor... To reduce lag even further in this scenario though - you should disable “auto-power-management” for the GPU and use manual settings (higher clocks).
     
  2. JonasBeckman

    JonasBeckman Ancient Guru

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    Interesting, have a lot to read up here on how this work and then some testing, learning a bit too so it'll be interesting to see the results of that works and then also a combination of traditional flip model and then also if flip discarding is introduced by overrides since it's still really uncommon in D3D11 titles for now. (Kinda needs Windows 8 at the minimum after all, Windows 10 for other features so Win7 and multiple code paths and support levels and yeah it has little chance of seeing usage other than D3D12 for now. :D )

    Sounds like a solid addition to the driver feature set too and it does more than adjust the flip queue from what I am reading but this is still a lot of new info so going to take some catching up on to begin understanding.
    Interesting though yeah what more can be said, sounds nice and is doing a good job in a number of titles already from what little I have checked already.

    EDIT: Right so a way to see about slashing down the flip chain down to minimal and it's effects on frame time and if that can be taken even further, would be neat if it could.
    (This hardware is quite aged though, results aren't going to be optimal but can still be good particularly for ports with certain issues and frame time values around 100ms instead of 16.6ms for 60 FPS or 33.3ms for 30 FPS if I recall the numbers correctly.)

    EDIT: So Koei Tecmo and some of their ports as a primary testing because it's been years and they're still doing a lot of the same stuff. :D

    https://abload.de/img/atelier_rorona015ufss.jpg
    (SpecialK and D3D11 DXGI overrides for flip model presentation and flip discard and while it got it down the game still hit 70ms frame times though later releases got it back under control but yeah it makes for a good testing base ha ha.)

    Nioh and a few other titles should be good candidates too, some PC ports of the mid to late 2000's - 2010's could work as well depending on which API's RAL works with for the moment which I also need to re-check since this was the transition period from bad to worse PC ports and also early D3D10 work and eventually D3D11 though it took a while for 11.1 and later to see use and I don't think many ports at all draw upon the feature set from 11.2 and on.
    (Maybe HDR from 11.3 or 11.4 which one it was again if not handled through NvAPI or via ADL / FreeSync now more recently.)


    EDIT: Which also means a balance between CPU and GPU bound and for this system RAM and IO is also factors for overall performance and other bottlenecks which would also affect resulting frame time values and perceived smoothness or a lack of it hah. (Driver situation even for what it does have for limits will still see less utilization of additional cores and threads for older titles as well particularly outside of D3D11 where it's likely to be almost fully single threaded.)
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
  3. DanEVO7

    DanEVO7 Member Guru

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    Can someone point me where the FlipQueueSize is in registry? Is it already in there or should i create it?
     
  4. HiAlgoBoost

    HiAlgoBoost Member

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    I would suggest you stop fiddling with the FlipQueueSize setting - I am not even sure this particular key is still in use (maybe the name has changed? can't find FlipQueueSize anywhere...) Unless someone saw this setting having an effect in some game? Anyone?...
     

  5. JonasBeckman

    JonasBeckman Ancient Guru

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    It's still in Atiumdag.dll at least but whether it does anything when exposed in the registry well I couldn't say it might be locked or in some read only state in newer drivers if a preferred value of 1 is the new choice here.

    EDIT: Nothing too advanced just to clarify it's just a quick text string in the .dll file so it was easy to find, no major tweaking here.

    EDIT: Fallout 4 was sensitive to changes here I believe, wonder if changing it and having the game crash would count although monitoring the value and what the screen / window is utilizing might be more correct or telling, sides it's Fallout 4 it kinda likes crashing.
     
  6. DanEVO7

    DanEVO7 Member Guru

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    Ok.. i won't bother with it. I was just curious to test it with ACC. By the way... Do you have any tips or tricks for this UE4 game?
     
  7. Eastcoasthandle

    Eastcoasthandle Ancient Guru

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    ACC, with it's use of UE4, is very pro Nvidia game. Perhaps after a year of patching AMD users will get some sort of performance uptick. But for now, specially with RTX ray tracing due to come out at some future point I wouldn't expect to much from them.

    Also, UE4, historically, has been known to be a pro Nvidia engine. Every game that uses UE4 (that I've seen) has shown a huge deficit in fps between Radeon and Nvidia GPUs when other gaming engines are used.
     
  8. DanEVO7

    DanEVO7 Member Guru

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    You 're most probably right but i have to keep my faith. Nvidia gpu + Gsync monitor is overpriced and out of range for me
     
  9. HiAlgoBoost

    HiAlgoBoost Member

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    The atiumdag.dll is the 32bit DX9 driver dll, and Fallout4 is 64bit DX11 - I don’t see how these things can be related...
     
  10. JonasBeckman

    JonasBeckman Ancient Guru

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    Ah right the D3D10+ driver is a different .dll entirely, atidxx and then 32 and 64-bit.
    And after a similar check having taken that into consideration the D3D9 and D3D9 64-bit .dll files do indeed carry that string but the D3D10 and higher .dll files do not so that appears to be correct then and it likely wouldn't do a anything.

    The game example is just one I know is a bit unstable to changes but monitoring programs or other utilities (There's a few.) would be a more accurate way if the user is comfortable with these as that would show the exact number instead.
     
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  11. D1stRU3T0R

    D1stRU3T0R Member Guru

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    Are there any official DX11.2+ (11.3 11.4) games and not just "ports" of it like many of dx12 games?
     
  12. Eastcoasthandle

    Eastcoasthandle Ancient Guru

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    Unless there is a wiki of some kind or someone did some research I'm not sure if something like that will be readily available.

    This is neither right or wrong in the context I'm about to present and I'm going on memeory here so not a whole of details. However, back in the day (as I don't know if they still do this). Nvidia had a program to help create "coders/developers" and some of them are out there in the wild today.

    However, do to this "bonded" relationship they show a lack of concern for Radeon in general. Now, I'm not saying that's the case for the games you play.

    However, here is one example of Radeon users getting bad performance in a game:
    https://mrgnome.wordpress.com/2009/09/23/need-for-speed-shift-ati-performance-issues/

    ATI had to publically blast the developer to make ATI cards work correctly. But look at how long ago that was...

    A second example is when Ubisoft patched out DX10.1 from the Assassin Creed once Radeon was able to optimize for it producing up to 20% +/- performance boost beating nv equivalent.
    https://techreport.com/news/14707/ubisoft-comments-on-assassins-creed-dx10-1-controversy-updated/

    I wanted to at least set your expectations just in case you never see proper Radeon support.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2019
  13. SpajdrEX

    SpajdrEX AMD Vanguard

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    Special K Injector shows something like this.
     
  14. JonasBeckman

    JonasBeckman Ancient Guru

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    The one bit of info I have from the DXVK comments and projects (Linux primarily but D3D11 to Vulkan wrapping.) is that 11.2 is very under utilized to where it's barely even worth supporting and it would be a extensive amount of work to support the newer functionality from Windows 8 or 8.1 plus Windows 10 which just further highlights how backwards compatibility with Windows 7 is still a very high focus and it might be holding back some of this functionality plus the 11.1 support Microsoft did backport was partial and there's other differences though I don't have a extensive answer and with the low level API's it's probably even harder to tell.

    MSI Afterburner having a profile for Halo Wars 2 for not going via D3D11onD3D12 might be a clue though as the one title (Last I knew.) that might have a more pure D3D12 implementation at least for a year or two ago not going through the Direct X 11 API although that's above my fairly limited skill set, I know a few things about a number of different things but nothing particularly in-depth in a very complex subject and one that is also constantly changing and then you have other information for how some implementations in games are just very problematic, against best practices or possibly even broken in some pretty unique ways or how to even begin to mention it, utilities and third party software and projects give some insight for regular users interested but it's pretty technical.

    I do foresee that eventually a better utilization of the newer DirectX 11 feature levels and functionality plus what's offered in newer versions of Windows itself from 8 and on can help improve frame time and reduce latency further without going into overrides or compatibility workarounds (Full-screen optimizations in Win10 I believe would actually be one of these. Enhanced Sync in AMD's driver settings I think qualifies as another before RAL here where you have to disable that.) but this is going to take time and for DirectX 12 where Microsoft fleshed out or made some features mandatory instead of optional it might help even more but that's not just going to be a standard and will co-exist with D3D11 for what is likely many more years as both are developed and expanded further with more features.

    So until then this sort of functionality will be quite handy to get latency down by from testing a pretty fair amount showing it's significance and effectiveness though I can't really claim to understand exactly what's going on but the results are clear.
    Even with improvements to the flip queue and going with a flip discard model https://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/sample-application-for-direct3d-12-flip-model-swap-chains perhaps it can be improved further but I am thinking it also hinges on the actual development and porting process getting the time it needs and developers utilizing and taking advantage of newer features fully but that's a really complex matter of it's own.
    (In general for PC games and ports moving beyond D3D9 in 2010 - 2011 and a shift to D3D11 as the standard likely helped a ton though even if it took time as always with these transitions.)

    Edge cases likely also exists and will continue to exist like how Unreal Engine 4 seems really intertwined with NvAPI and what effects this might have for AMD but that falls outside of the scope of this feature though it's possibly something to keep in mind when trying to maximize performance, frame time and latency as a means for optimal smoothness and minimum stuttering, hitching and responsiveness. (Or "lag" as it's often just bundled int with even if that's more of a network thing.)

    This is promising already though and eventually more can follow and it could improve even further but that's a huge unknown that can't really be answered just speculated about for how things currently are and how it could change.
    I am certainly interested in seeing how it goes though, higher framerates are nice but there's more to this than just that. :D


    EDIT: Well I'm no expert or anything, just reading a lot and trying to learn and continue to get a better understanding but it's pretty simple or shallow for the overall complexity of the subject matter so a bit about a lot of things but no real specialization but I am fascinated by developments like these and what they can do and what tests are showing for benefits already. :)

    So much goes into what the user perceives as smooth too and thus how some games might benefit more than others. Input delay I would imagine could really ruin the feel or perceived responsiveness in games even if charts and data shows a change in numbers.


    Well that also goes outside of the scope here and just further highlights the size and complexity of this sort of thing at least to me, every little bit helps though.
    (Though that easily happens with something as broad lag and how it's felt or perceived and all the ways that can affect it.)

    Anyways lots of text saying nothing too different than what's already been mentioned though I try to be detailed or explain although I have much more to even begin to try and understand and learn too so that's a thing but yeah D3D12 changes up a few things by having optional features moved into mandatory and then D3D11.1 has some good nice features that are starting to see wider use but for 11.2 and later it will probably be a while longer although HDR and maybe more could make a difference here although what functionality ends up being utilized that will vary depending on needs and many other factors.
    (Time for one.)


    EDIT: Well I've never considered myself to be all that great with explanations so just some thoughts and opinions more than anything, let's see how this all goes!
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2019
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  15. Eastcoasthandle

    Eastcoasthandle Ancient Guru

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    Button mashing combos does seem better. Although I'm not all that good at this game yet.
     
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  16. JonasBeckman

    JonasBeckman Ancient Guru

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    From what I am finding yes it will usually lower input latency and can be helpful although primarily in already GPU limited scenarios and there is indeed a slight performance hit depending on the users hardware which might explain one of the reports from how the 19.7.x drivers had a performance hit compared to 19.6.x though I have more to read up on for this subject though that info was pretty interesting for what I found already. :)

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/cfl2bq/radeon_antilag_tested_can_amd_deliver_another/


    Video and a few of the general comments about results and tests about RAL.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/ce3fuf/driver_release_radeon_software_adrenalin_2019/

    19.7.2 driver release topic but a few of the comments cover RAL and how it works on their systems.


    There's other comments and probably other threads too plus other forums and what not but so far it generally reduces input lag, works ideally under GPU limited situations and might work better still at higher framerates but there is also a FPS hit which I assume is both from RAL itself and for the users hardware so a well balanced more recent system might cope with it better but a slightly older one could see a mild performance hit from what I am reading. :)

    Still more to learn, liking the feature though I am also trying to get more info and learn what I can although it has it's limits ha ha. :D
    (It is pretty technical after all or well from how I'm understanding it and from my knowledge and all that which as a regular user isn't going to be the greatest heh.)
     
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  17. Eastcoasthandle

    Eastcoasthandle Ancient Guru

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    That's interesting that it's popularity is gaining some traction but I don't know why more who have a Radeon Card don't try this more?

    In any case I've also played PC2 in the rain. This, in single player, was a particular problem as for whatever reason wet roads would cause the car to drive as if it's on ice. I wasn't the only one who noticed this:
    http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?52220-Rain-is-undrivable
    https://steamcommunity.com/app/378860/discussions/1/1621724915809505363/
    https://www.playstationtrophies.org...ng-anymore-until-rain-snow-ice-bug-fixed.html
    https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/205434-project-cars-2/75904130

    There were several complaints about this problem However, with RAL racing in the rain is now fun! Not just functional...where I have to set the race time really low to finish under 4 laps.

     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
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  18. Krteq

    Krteq Master Guru

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  19. Eastcoasthandle

    Eastcoasthandle Ancient Guru

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    Yeah but their conclusion appears to contradict their findings though.
    And I was hoping they would bench twitch shooters like BO4 and racing sims. IMO that's were I'm noticing it most.
    BV5 results are about what I'm seeing...nothing much there.
    From my experience RAL isn't about "smooth gameplay" I already get that. It's about how quickly you get your character, car, etc to react in game. This is what I've noticed most. But for games that are naturally much more slower paced I'm not seeing much unless I'm trying to do more then 1 thing at a time. For me it's games like:
    Hitman 2
    BV5
    BF1
    BF4

    But for games that require precision steering with a gamepad or twitching shooting where milliseconds do indeed count this does make a difference. Games like
    Blackops
    Modern Warfare
    PC2

    So, I honestly can't take the review seriously when they were looking for "just" smooth game play. They are IMHO looking at the wrong thing. Even though their own tests clearly show something contrary to their own conclusion. Which is why they are so confusing. They are looking for monitor response times instead of looking at input response time (keyboard, mouse, controller).

    Another thing, not everyone can just turn down settings some of those settings can hinder you from playing competitively (distance, AA when at 1080p, etc). Specially when you are on a budget build. So every FPS does count. What's special about RAL is that between 60-90 FPS you can actually get a decent reduction of latency And having RAL to lower input lag even though you can barely keep 60 is a bonus when you aren't in the position to just buy a more expense video card.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2019
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  20. Jayson

    Jayson Active Member

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    I was playing The Forest at 1440p and since I had a pretty complex build going, I was getting around 35-45fps and I toggled Anti-Lag on and off and there was a massive difference between them. It literally felt like I was playing at 60hz even though I was in the 30's and 40's. Quite amazed, I was. Anti-Lag makes the most difference when your frame rate is low.
     
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