Another look at HPET High Precision Event Timer

Discussion in 'Videocards - NVIDIA GeForce Drivers Section' started by Bukkake, Sep 18, 2012.

  1. Smough

    Smough Master Guru

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    1709 doesn't have anything special, also fr33thy didn't even explain why he picks that version over others, since according to him and his crew the rest are "unstable", even if they are uncapable of giving a reason why whatsoever, they are just dumb. Fr33thy gives some great tweaks on his videos and some helped me a lot, but his behavior is just nonsense at times. If you want to get an older version, get 1803, latest update as it does't have the Standby memory bug anymore and games run fine even with it full and also because Spectre&Meltdown can be removed as an update (you unistall it). All newer version past 1803 have Spectre&Meltdown embeded into the O.S, you can still change the microcode, but the mitigations are still O.S level.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2020
  2. Groot

    Groot Member

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    From Microsoft, still a nice read IMHO even if from 2002
    https://web.archive.org/web/2008041...ft.com/whdc/system/sysinternals/mm-timer.mspx
    Quote:
    The High Precision Event Timer
    The High Precision Event Timer (HPET) was developed jointly by Intel and Microsoft to meet the timing requirements of multimedia and other time-sensitive applications. Originally, the HPET was called the Multimedia Timer (MM Timer), but the name was later changed to avoid confusion with a Microsoft DirectX timer, and to better describe the timer.

    Benefits of the HPET
    Experiments on prototype HPET hardware by Microsoft Test Engineers have shown that, in addition to extending the capabilities and precision of a system, the HPET also improved system performance.


    I still have Vista on an old laptop and that's how it worked for me. But lets quote Microsoft again.
    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/sysinfo/acquiring-high-resolution-time-stamps
    Quote:
    QPC support in Windows versions
    QPC was introduced in Windows 2000 and Windows XP and has evolved to take advantage of improvements in the hardware platform and processors. Here we describe the characteristics of QPC on different Windows versions to help you maintain software that runs on those Windows versions.
    <snip>
    All computers that shipped with Windows Vista and Windows Server 2008 used a platform counter (High Precision Event Timer (HPET)) or the ACPI Power Management Timer (PM timer) as the basis for QPC. Such platform timers have higher access latency than the TSC and are shared between multiple processors. This limits scalability of QPC if it is called concurrently from multiple processors.


    So why do you say no?
     
  3. Astyanax

    Astyanax Ancient Guru

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    The PM timer was the QPC timer unless platformclocktrue was set on Vista.
     
  4. AlexOptimal

    AlexOptimal Member

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    Won't the 10mhz timer on the newer versions of Windows 10 cause latency issues? Or is that just fake news from FR33THY and crew?
     

  5. mbk1969

    mbk1969 Ancient Guru

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    Have you seen him elaborating on this subject?
     
  6. janos666

    janos666 Maha Guru

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    The best way to control the mitigations is through the windows registry switches (I mean, I recommend defaults but if you wish otherwise...). You can and should keep both Windows and the CPU microcode updated (microcode updates are not a new thing, they have been used to patch CPU bugs for decades, spectre/meltdown is a security bug but there are also stability/performance/datacorruption bugs in CPUs...).
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2020
  7. aufkrawall2

    aufkrawall2 Master Guru

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    Where is the connection to that specific Windows version when it was fixed in the Nvidia driver?

    Is there any benchmark that shows any performance penalty with that Windows MC update when mitigations are turned off via registry/group policies?
     
  8. Xtreme512

    Xtreme512 Master Guru

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    InSpectre does that, a free small tool.
     
  9. AlexOptimal

    AlexOptimal Member

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    No, I can't say I have. That's sort of the reason why I'm asking here, you guys seem more on top of it than he does. So, do you have the answer? Like I said man, I'm an open book here and I'm willing to learn.
     
  10. AlexOptimal

    AlexOptimal Member

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    In fact I never really see him elaborating on anything, but it seems like he's getting most of this info from people like you guys which actually know what they're talking about. So he's probably at least second hand right about most of the stuff he says, even though he doesn't have an understanding of it.
     

  11. Smough

    Smough Master Guru

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    I get what you are saying, but so far the microcode 22h for CPU's like mine, such as Haswell, seems to work the best on older systems.

    https://www.overclock.net/forum/5-i...pectre-performance-stability-differences.html

    https://www.overclock.net/forum/5-i...de-update-cpu-microcode-through-software.html

    Also any microcode past that has security mitigations. Imo spectre&meltdown "security" is just another bloatware, I don't need that hindering my gaming experience and I have not seen a single "attack" to any home user that doesn't have this "protection". I doubt very much a newer microcode would make a CPU perform a lot better "magically" or get more performance score on benchmarks. In fact, past microcodes 22h seems to ruin Haswell CPU's, which make sense, any microcode past 22h has spectre&meltdown mitigations, so I doubt it would provide any "bug fix".
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2020
  12. Smough

    Smough Master Guru

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    As I mentioned before, his videos have bits of good info, but a great majority of the time he doesn't elaborate on anything, literally he just tells people to do it because.
     
  13. Smough

    Smough Master Guru

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    I found some users worried about this:

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us...-windows/44946807-5355-4b36-ba3e-43aa86ce30c0

    https://social.msdn.microsoft.com/F...ncyqpc-in-windows-10-1809-onward?forum=windbg

    https://www.reddit.com/r/windows/comments/bm4w8l/in_windows_10_1903_queryperformancefrequency_is/

    https://www.windowsphoneinfo.com/th...ows-10-build-1809-causing-performance.140399/

    https://www.overclock.net/forum/132-windows/1711242-my-windows-timer-seems-off-after-new-update.html

    Decide for yourself, so far it seems to be "bad", no word on why MS decided to do this, I am waiting for Windows 2004 release to see if MS changed this or gives any info on the subject.
     
  14. Groot

    Groot Member

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    useplatformclock wasn't an option in BCD until W7, just as useplatformtick wasn't an option until W8. QPC is a counter, not a timer and both the PM Timer and HPET are platform clocks of which under Windows HPET has precedence.

    From your link
    The 10MHz QPC is also from TSC.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2020
  15. Smough

    Smough Master Guru

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    And how do you know its also TSC? Also I never claimed anything, I just posted that because he seemed worried about the 10 MHz QPC and apparently, it creates a bit more of system lag. When I tried both 1809 and 1909, the system felt like if I was playing a game with v-sync on, on 1803 and earlier of course, the system feels snappy and agile again.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2020

  16. HeavyHemi

    HeavyHemi Ancient Guru

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    ...came across this site

    http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1...n-bios-and-os-for-better-performance-and-fps/

    i used to have hpet disabled in bios and it was also disabled in my windows.

    now i enabled it in the bios and i enabled it in windows.

    i have yet to test any games and i dont really notice any difference

    my max latency in dpc latenacy check is 132 us

    in the topic there is wildy different results

    but with my computer in non gaming related usage i dont see any differnce at all.


    That's the first post on this thread from 2012.

     
  17. Cyberdyne

    Cyberdyne Ancient Guru

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    Uh oh, this thread is about to loop again.
     
  18. janos666

    janos666 Maha Guru

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    Well, for starters, it should be move from Geforce Drivers to some other section of the forum (like Operating Systems or Game Tweaks may be).
     
  19. Smough

    Smough Master Guru

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    That thread is ancient and the user who posted that was explaining things from his point of view, it doesn't mean it will be the same for all users or that he is right. If HPET active on Windows was so amazing and epic and whatever, then the O.S would have it active as default; yet it doesn't. Windows uses TSC; HPET when its needed, no need to force it on or off, I believe if an user fully understand its functions, then they could force it on for a particular program or application, the rest of users don't need it on because Windows manages it.

    Stock HPET+active on BIOS is the best setting:

    I'd rather believe a real video than some telling me to force a timer on my O.S that doesn't need to be force, because its actually dynamic.

    He also said this (from the thread you linked): "Fortunately I have to say that useplatformclock defaults windows to the best that the clock has (cpu), but is it so with mb's?"

    He doesn't even know what he is doing or changing, it just seemed ok for him, that's it

    As for latency, well, this my system: https://imgur.com/a/XqOkjuS

    And if your whole post is sarcasm, well then, I fully fell for it, because taking advice from a random post from a random user that has no idea on anything its something I refuse anyone from here would just do.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2020
  20. mbk1969

    mbk1969 Ancient Guru

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    We have no means to check that. I mean we can't switch that frequency on the fly. And if you use older version of Win10 then the test is not relevant because whole OS is different.
     
    Smough likes this.

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