Another look at HPET High Precision Event Timer

Discussion in 'Videocards - NVIDIA GeForce Drivers Section' started by Bukkake, Sep 18, 2012.

  1. Groot

    Groot Member

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    Well AFAIK HPET was Microsofts baby and when Vista was launched it was the default for QPC, well it didn't even have a useplatformclock option to turn it off. Then W7 switched to TSC but at the time quite a few people were overclocking bclk through software with programs such as setFSB. That didn't play nice since Windows only did an initial frequency check so many of those guys went back to HPET. FWIW since I'm not an avid gamer then HPET works just fine for me even today.

    When I tried it only appears to check timer resolution once when the program itself is started so not very suitable. W7 and W10 seem to be quite different in how they handle timer resolution. When running unigene Heaven bench W7 appears to switch back and forth from 1ms to 10ms and has a much coarser granularity while W10 switches all over the place and will go down to 0.5ms without intervention or even lower if allowed but we wont talk about that ;)

    Here's sampling 10x a second on W10 with useplatformtick yes/no. Might have to slow it down to see some of the changes.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Astyanax

    Astyanax Ancient Guru

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    no it wasn't and no it wasn't lol.
     
  3. mbk1969

    mbk1969 Ancient Guru

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    If it helps then it is nice.
     
  4. Smough

    Smough Master Guru

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    1709 doesn't have anything special, also fr33thy didn't even explain why he picks that version over others, since according to him and his crew the rest are "unstable", even if they are uncapable of giving a reason why whatsoever, they are just dumb. Fr33thy gives some great tweaks on his videos and some helped me a lot, but his behavior is just nonsense at times. If you want to get an older version, get 1803, latest update as it does't have the Standby memory bug anymore and games run fine even with it full and also because Spectre&Meltdown can be removed as an update (you unistall it). All newer version past 1803 have Spectre&Meltdown embeded into the O.S, you can still change the microcode, but the mitigations are still O.S level.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2020

  5. Groot

    Groot Member

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    From Microsoft, still a nice read IMHO even if from 2002
    https://web.archive.org/web/2008041...ft.com/whdc/system/sysinternals/mm-timer.mspx
    Quote:
    The High Precision Event Timer
    The High Precision Event Timer (HPET) was developed jointly by Intel and Microsoft to meet the timing requirements of multimedia and other time-sensitive applications. Originally, the HPET was called the Multimedia Timer (MM Timer), but the name was later changed to avoid confusion with a Microsoft DirectX timer, and to better describe the timer.

    Benefits of the HPET
    Experiments on prototype HPET hardware by Microsoft Test Engineers have shown that, in addition to extending the capabilities and precision of a system, the HPET also improved system performance.


    I still have Vista on an old laptop and that's how it worked for me. But lets quote Microsoft again.
    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/sysinfo/acquiring-high-resolution-time-stamps
    Quote:
    QPC support in Windows versions
    QPC was introduced in Windows 2000 and Windows XP and has evolved to take advantage of improvements in the hardware platform and processors. Here we describe the characteristics of QPC on different Windows versions to help you maintain software that runs on those Windows versions.
    <snip>
    All computers that shipped with Windows Vista and Windows Server 2008 used a platform counter (High Precision Event Timer (HPET)) or the ACPI Power Management Timer (PM timer) as the basis for QPC. Such platform timers have higher access latency than the TSC and are shared between multiple processors. This limits scalability of QPC if it is called concurrently from multiple processors.


    So why do you say no?
     
  6. Astyanax

    Astyanax Ancient Guru

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    The PM timer was the QPC timer unless platformclocktrue was set on Vista.
     
  7. AlexOptimal

    AlexOptimal Member

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    Won't the 10mhz timer on the newer versions of Windows 10 cause latency issues? Or is that just fake news from FR33THY and crew?
     
  8. mbk1969

    mbk1969 Ancient Guru

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    Have you seen him elaborating on this subject?
     
  9. janos666

    janos666 Master Guru

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    The best way to control the mitigations is through the windows registry switches (I mean, I recommend defaults but if you wish otherwise...). You can and should keep both Windows and the CPU microcode updated (microcode updates are not a new thing, they have been used to patch CPU bugs for decades, spectre/meltdown is a security bug but there are also stability/performance/datacorruption bugs in CPUs...).
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2020
  10. aufkrawall2

    aufkrawall2 Master Guru

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    Where is the connection to that specific Windows version when it was fixed in the Nvidia driver?

    Is there any benchmark that shows any performance penalty with that Windows MC update when mitigations are turned off via registry/group policies?
     

  11. Xtreme512

    Xtreme512 Master Guru

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    InSpectre does that, a free small tool.
     
  12. AlexOptimal

    AlexOptimal Member

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    No, I can't say I have. That's sort of the reason why I'm asking here, you guys seem more on top of it than he does. So, do you have the answer? Like I said man, I'm an open book here and I'm willing to learn.
     
  13. AlexOptimal

    AlexOptimal Member

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    In fact I never really see him elaborating on anything, but it seems like he's getting most of this info from people like you guys which actually know what they're talking about. So he's probably at least second hand right about most of the stuff he says, even though he doesn't have an understanding of it.
     
  14. Smough

    Smough Master Guru

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    I get what you are saying, but so far the microcode 22h for CPU's like mine, such as Haswell, seems to work the best on older systems.

    https://www.overclock.net/forum/5-i...pectre-performance-stability-differences.html

    https://www.overclock.net/forum/5-i...de-update-cpu-microcode-through-software.html

    Also any microcode past that has security mitigations. Imo spectre&meltdown "security" is just another bloatware, I don't need that hindering my gaming experience and I have not seen a single "attack" to any home user that doesn't have this "protection". I doubt very much a newer microcode would make a CPU perform a lot better "magically" or get more performance score on benchmarks. In fact, past microcodes 22h seems to ruin Haswell CPU's, which make sense, any microcode past 22h has spectre&meltdown mitigations, so I doubt it would provide any "bug fix".
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2020
  15. Smough

    Smough Master Guru

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    As I mentioned before, his videos have bits of good info, but a great majority of the time he doesn't elaborate on anything, literally he just tells people to do it because.
     

  16. Smough

    Smough Master Guru

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    I found some users worried about this:

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us...-windows/44946807-5355-4b36-ba3e-43aa86ce30c0

    https://social.msdn.microsoft.com/F...ncyqpc-in-windows-10-1809-onward?forum=windbg

    https://www.reddit.com/r/windows/comments/bm4w8l/in_windows_10_1903_queryperformancefrequency_is/

    https://www.windowsphoneinfo.com/th...ows-10-build-1809-causing-performance.140399/

    https://www.overclock.net/forum/132-windows/1711242-my-windows-timer-seems-off-after-new-update.html

    Decide for yourself, so far it seems to be "bad", no word on why MS decided to do this, I am waiting for Windows 2004 release to see if MS changed this or gives any info on the subject.
     
  17. Groot

    Groot Member

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    useplatformclock wasn't an option in BCD until W7, just as useplatformtick wasn't an option until W8. QPC is a counter, not a timer and both the PM Timer and HPET are platform clocks of which under Windows HPET has precedence.

    From your link
    The 10MHz QPC is also from TSC.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2020
  18. Smough

    Smough Master Guru

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    And how do you know its also TSC? Also I never claimed anything, I just posted that because he seemed worried about the 10 MHz QPC and apparently, it creates a bit more of system lag. When I tried both 1809 and 1909, the system felt like if I was playing a game with v-sync on, on 1803 and earlier of course, the system feels snappy and agile again.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2020
  19. HeavyHemi

    HeavyHemi Ancient Guru

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    ...came across this site

    http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1...n-bios-and-os-for-better-performance-and-fps/

    i used to have hpet disabled in bios and it was also disabled in my windows.

    now i enabled it in the bios and i enabled it in windows.

    i have yet to test any games and i dont really notice any difference

    my max latency in dpc latenacy check is 132 us

    in the topic there is wildy different results

    but with my computer in non gaming related usage i dont see any differnce at all.


    That's the first post on this thread from 2012.

     
  20. Cyberdyne

    Cyberdyne Ancient Guru

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    Uh oh, this thread is about to loop again.
     

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