America’s Descent into Poverty. Is any of this true?

Discussion in 'The Guru's Pub' started by HonoredShadow, Aug 25, 2012.

  1. sykozis

    sykozis Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    21,098
    Likes Received:
    692
    GPU:
    MSI RX5700
    Yes, let GM....one of the largest employers, fail....and see how badly it impacts the economy.... Let the financial sector fail....and see how fast everyone in the country goes bankrupt.... Letting businesses fail is 1 thing. Letting entire industries fail would be a complete disaster.
     
  2. IcE

    IcE Don Snow Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,693
    Likes Received:
    73
    GPU:
    Zotac GTX 1070 Mini
    False, they have yet to even lend us 1 trillion total. Japan has lent more.
     
  3. Kaleid

    Kaleid Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    2,377
    Likes Received:
    143
    GPU:
    rx480 8GB
    No, the economy was down the crapper before Obama stepped in.

    When the ship is sinking and filled with holes, then the holes need to be fixed, and costs money. If they hadn't spend anything then wallstreet would have completely collapsed and with it the country and the entire world economy. Still, this problem is so big that it still hasn't been fixed, especially for mainstreet, and not just in USA.

    In USA however, the richest are now in fine shape (richer thane before 2008 in fact), taxes are lowest since 58 so if the mega rich wanted to create jobs then they could.

    Corporate Profits Rising At Expense Of Hiring, Report Says
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/04/corporate-profits-jobs-investment_n_1478340.html

    Major U.S. Corporations Squeezing Even More Money Out Of Employees
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/09/revenue-per-employee_n_1412293.html

    Election 2012: Obama Holds Double-Digit Lead Over Romney With Global Investors, Poll Finds
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/11/obama-investors-poll_n_1508429.html

    Excessive greed is a huge problem.

    It's the same thing with Greece, years of mismanagement, and it will cost to get that country on its feet too. They will have to pay up if they want to save the Euro. Raising taxes will be a necessity. It's too bad that the public will face most of the cuts if not all, but not those who are doing really well, and oh boy there are plenty of those.

    Iceland got out of it by bailing out the PUBLIC (and of course banks were involved in the mess. Deregulation allowed three banks to borrow more money than the entire Icelandic annual GDP):
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...ebt-relief-in-best-crisis-recovery-story.html
     
  4. IcE

    IcE Don Snow Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,693
    Likes Received:
    73
    GPU:
    Zotac GTX 1070 Mini
    Also, lol. The cities you are describing as being "left to rot in poverty" had their economies built upon manufacturing. And since workers actually have a very good level of protection in this country, those companies decided to take their plants overseas or to Mexico. I mean, what do you expect the government to do in this case? The same problem happened to the U.K. but at an earlier time. Global economics naturally screw over the standard "working" class.

    Also, what do you even mean that only the "protected parts of cities" are well off? Cleveland and Detroit actually have really well kept and nice down town areas as well as suburbs. Troy, and Ann Arbor are both very high class areas.

    I mean, why are there so many misconceptions about the situation over here? The only real problem we have is the fact that higher education is mostly privatized. Coupled with the fact that the average American expects everything handed to them on a silver plate means that nobody really understand the value of said higher education. It's certainly not very hard to get lots of grants, scholarships, and put yourself through the system without debt at all. But most people don't understand how competitive they have to be at this point in time. All that's left are service industry jobs. It's no different in the rest of the western world either.

    Also, I'm pretty sure the U.K. has the exact same problem that we do with regards to immigrants stealing local jobs and raping the social services that are supposed to be provided to actual low income citizens.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2012

  5. H83

    H83 Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    2,748
    Likes Received:
    410
    GPU:
    MSI Duke GTX1080Ti
    I simply can´t understand how some people are dismissing this tread as just another one "economical treads" or another tread made by people envious of America.

    Right now what is happening is America is also happening in Europe and in the future will happen win the economies that are now raising like Brazil, Russia, India and China.

    The truth is that the economical system that most considered to be perfect or almost failed completely because of pure greed and ignorance.
    Greed because the richest ones set their eyes on getting even more rich at any cost and ignorance because 90% of the populations were easily fooled by an apparent improving of their lifes that they didn´t stop to think for a second if the economies of their countries were sustainable at long term despite the fact that countries were always borrowing money!!!

    Now we are at the beginning of a very bad situation that will get worse every year until the point were having a job will be something rare...

    People better start worrying about this because this will affect everyone and only a few will be affected in a good way...
     
  6. sykozis

    sykozis Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    21,098
    Likes Received:
    692
    GPU:
    MSI RX5700
    The only way for the US economy to be corrected is through reductions in needless government spending, investments in social programs (such as welfare, education, new industry) and increased taxes. Unfortunately, the middle and lower class will see the tax hikes and likely won't see the social program investments that are actually needed....and seeing as how the banks don't want to loan money in any meaningful way, new industry is hopeless.... And, of course, the biggest part....the idiots in DC won't cut the needless spending unless it means more people become unemployed....
     
  7. GhostXL

    GhostXL Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    6,009
    Likes Received:
    14
    GPU:
    ASUS STRIX 2080 Ti
    By 2015 we are supposed to get around 1 million jobs back from China.

    Also by 2015 Cloud computing will generate around 14 million jobs worldwide

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/joemcke...e-14-million-jobs-by-2015-thats-a-good-start/

    Shale Gas to create 1.5 million jobs in U.S by 2015

    http://247wallst.com/2012/06/13/sha...es-1-million-us-jobs-chk-eog-apc-dvn-apa-rrc/

    Yeah it's a bumpy ride to 2015, but it's a start.

    But I honestly suggest to all of you lacking in more than basic computer skills, to start learning on your own. Do research etc what ever it takes, as most of these new jobs will require some sort of more than basic computer know-how.

    http://www.mfginamerica.com/am0612-manufacturing-jobs.aspx

    One more,2 to 3 mil by 2015

    With U.S. competitiveness continuing to improve, and costs in China rising, the United States will be in a strong position by 2015 to add 2 million to 3 million jobs, and an estimated $100 billion in annual output in a range of industries, according to a report by The Boston Consulting Group.

    Hang in there my peoples, it's not the end of the world in 2012, just a bumpy transition.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2012
  8. sykozis

    sykozis Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    21,098
    Likes Received:
    692
    GPU:
    MSI RX5700
    Unless you can approach computers with an open mind....which is proving to be a major problem based on countless forum posts....computer jobs will be hard to acquire even with more than basic computer knowledge.
     
  9. Black_ice_Spain

    Black_ice_Spain Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    4,553
    Likes Received:
    0
    GPU:
    970GTX
    because what happens in US affects what happens in mine.

    Spanish trade market was a reflect of US trade market.

    Now US trade market has a little a reflect of spanish trade market (opposite reason tho, in spain goes down, euro may too).

    I won't judge US economy since i dont know it and we have to kill every politic here in Spain before we start worrying about externals :nerd:, but i find this post a little psycho about low paid people.

    Not to add, most of those "poor 22k$ young college graduated" will be the "guys who get paid a lot" in a few years, and that will not be fine for the other people who gets 22k in a future.

    When crappy jobs and low responsability/studies (idk if politic goes here too) ones get better paid than investigators and such, then you will need to worry where's your country going (i'm actually doing), until then... meh, its just natural selection.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2012
  10. FULMTL

    FULMTL Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    6,704
    Likes Received:
    2
    GPU:
    AOC 27"
    Interesting read, and I've heard it before. I still think that college needs to be much cheaper. Not entirely free, but affordable at least.
    I really hate to see my friends who went to college, now jobless, and having to move back home. I didn't go to college because I couldn't afford it. How come I have more money than some of my educated friends?
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2012

  11. Coolerking

    Coolerking Master Guru

    Messages:
    235
    Likes Received:
    79
    GPU:
    XFXR9 Fury X H2O
  12. Coolerking

    Coolerking Master Guru

    Messages:
    235
    Likes Received:
    79
    GPU:
    XFXR9 Fury X H2O
    because you worked for it...amazing huh?\
    lol kids these days...:bang:
     
  13. FULMTL

    FULMTL Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    6,704
    Likes Received:
    2
    GPU:
    AOC 27"
    "Man, I see in fight club the strongest and smartest men who've ever lived. I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy **** we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off."
    - Tyler Durden

    So much for the Occupy Movement eh? Haven't heard any news of that in months. I was thinking Project Mayhem would have been more effective.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2012
  14. JohnMaclane

    JohnMaclane Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    4,825
    Likes Received:
    0
    GPU:
    8800GTS 640mb
    America is one of the luckiest nations in the world in terms of geography and natural resources. Yet for all the natural prosperity, historical advantages and political liberty we can see definite pattern of decline. Decline in the US will mean decline in Europe.

    The problem I 'think' is the american political system coupled with anti-communism which closed many alternative policies.

    Simply put Americas voting system sucks, being a winner takes all system ensures two party rule, throws away most of the votes and makes the election a farce. Another worrying thing is that nothing is being done about the abyssal voter turnout.

    If the US had to adopt a German style proportional system with 5% limits congress would be a very interesting place.

    Another political problem is lobbying, people with money manged to get their way in the american political system and that is a fundamental flaw.

    The anti-communist, super pro capitalist mindset the cold war forced on the american people means government controls are seriously limited. The US government cannot control healthcare costs, cannot control educational costs and rarely intervenes directly in the economy.

    Some posts here about how China bails out the US is bs (well considering who posted it), most treasury bills are owned by Americans and the US has a unique currency which allows the country to borrow enormous amounts without servicing costs rising, a historical fact (determined by the Bretton Woods system).

    Also the 'decline' of the US is also a feeling which comes after two unsuccessful conflicts. The US remains the 'biggest kid on the block', it also has the resources, openness and people to bounce back bigger and stronger then ever (IMO).

    If I was the US president I would do the following:

    Change the electoral law, nice proportional German style with 5% limits.

    Seriously regulate lobbying and pass a party financing law.

    Create a national healthcare system based on the British system.

    Create a network of free higher education.

    Create a strategic energy plan (IMO nuclear with a massive state energy provider like the french EDF).

    Rationalize military spending and bring it back to 1990s levels.

    Much more stuff.
     
  15. mmicrosysm

    mmicrosysm Master Guru

    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    0
    GPU:
    Cirrus Logic GD5430 1Meg
    I concur Buffalo is a rotted city with very little Industry left to sustain the population here. Cleveland at least developed their water front to draw in tourism dollars. Buffalo is too corrupted to accomplish even that :(

    Look at Niagara Falls, NY compared to Niagara Falls, Ont... Corruption killed the US side of the Falls. It is a city of bloody urban blight with run down homes and boarded up shops, bars and restaurants. Only the Seneca Indians are making money on the US side of the falls with their casino. Niagara Falls, NY used to be a beautiful place to visit now I wouldn't spit on the sidewalk.
     

  16. Lethal Abz

    Lethal Abz Maha Guru

    Messages:
    1,184
    Likes Received:
    0
    GPU:
    Geforce GTX 470
    Yes, so they were left to rot if you think about it. You only have to visit Detroit to see how messed up it is.

    UK was a manufacturing country too, but it has since shifted to proivding other line of work such as technological. If the manufacturing industry in detroit went why not put in a plan for something else instead of just giving up?

    The protected cities are those, no matter what the government will always invest in, bail out, no matter how much the city has messed up with its finances.

    In terms of immigrants taking your resources... whose fault is it, the people taking their due rights or the people providing it. Here is an analogy if someone said you can move to another country where there will be food, clothing, shelter and job for you, would you turn around and say "no im stealing the resources?" Its not the peoples fault, its the people controlling it. Instead of hating the immigrants, who are lawfully in the land, hate the policies and the people making the policies. Maybe if the Western world (UK, USA) concentrated more on its own Land rather than trying poking their noses in other peoples lands then there probably wouldn't have been such a mess economically and sociologically.
     
  17. Dustpuppy

    Dustpuppy Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    4,146
    Likes Received:
    0
    GPU:
    integrated - fffffffuuuuu
    Detroit was not simply a case of manufacturing leaving. The Detroit riots chased off the gentry, then political corruption and drugs obliterated effective administration in the city.
     
  18. scheherazade

    scheherazade Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    2,051
    Likes Received:
    0
    GPU:
    fullHDs
    Depends who you are and where you live.

    I know people who live hand to mouth.
    I know people who have a lot of discretionary spending.

    I've observed an increase in the 'hand to mouth' category just among folks I know and their families.

    None of the people I know have risen in quality of life.




    Much depends on personal circumstance.

    Eg. One girl that works with my mom is just a few years out of high school. She has a couple kids. She can't get health insurance because the cheapest she can get is 1600 a month. Rent/fuel/food leave basically nothing, so no way in hell she can come up with another 1600 a month.

    Eg. Another person that works with my GF told my GF that "if she can save up $500 by next month, she'll buy a puppy"... To which my GF was like o_O (she can't imagine not having $500 to spare).



    Some areas have visibly turned to crap.
    Empty strip malls, empty town centers (outdoor shopping mall), ghostly areas...

    It's not that bad near the capital, but some folks I know that have family in rural parts of the U.S. told me about towns where practically every store was closed.

    -scheherazade
     
  19. scheherazade

    scheherazade Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    2,051
    Likes Received:
    0
    GPU:
    fullHDs


    Funny thing with taxes and spending, is that so long as it's spent internally, it just doesn't matter.

    Tax more, pay more govt workers, more govt workers spend $, you make more $ providing them products/services, you pay more taxes.

    Tax less, pay less govt workers, less govt workers spend $, you make less $ providing them products/services, you pay less taxes.


    It's only a problem when tax revenue is spent outside the nation, and it doesn't come back easily - or comes back in leeching ways.

    One of the worst ways that overseas dollars come back is when foreigners buy U.S. companies. It lets them take profits overseas, and they come back later to buy more companies, taking more profits overseas. It's a cycle that accelerates, and drains cash from our economy.

    Just make sure to spend tax money internally, and you're golden.






    Another aspect is cost of living vs taxation - and whether or not a tax is a burden.

    I'll make up an example to illustrate.
    Say it costs you $1000 a month to pay for your living. $250 Rent, $250 food, $250 fuel, $250 insurance.
    And you are taxed $300 a month (nominally), which provides you with a number of unrelated items.
    Then you need $1300 a month to get by.

    Now if $250 of the $300 you are taxed, happens to provide government-provided fuel...
    Then you now only need $750 to cover cost of living, since the taxes covered fuel - which you no longer need to buy separately.
    The government still pays its employees - just the services that the government employees provide happen to be of daily use to you.
    So your total monthly cost of living falls to $1050.
    And now you have $250 to spare for discretionary spending.

    Basically, what the government chooses to do with its revenue can determine how much of a burden the tax really is.
    If the government program provides something you'd need to buy anyways, then the taxes paid for it are not a burden.






    And stimulus is being spent in ways that help the govt's friends, and not the nation.

    You need to stimulate bottom up.

    Poor people spend money right away - because they need money for essentials. That spent cash becomes other people's income, and turns the wheels.

    Rich people put money away into savings or financial products, and those items swirl around in abstract financial markets, hardly having any impact on the day-to-day economy. That money basically serves to shore up the wealthy campaign donors.





    Bottom 50% of the U.S. have 2.5% of the wealth.
    Top 1% of the U.S. have 38% of the wealth.

    If you tax the bottom 50% of the U.S. at a 100% rate, you generate the same revenue as taxing the top 1% at a 6.5% rate.

    Basically, most of the U.S. population barely contributes to the government budget - mostly because they make so little that anything you tax them won't make a dent in the budget.

    And to look back historically, the top 1% went from paying 91% in 1963 (too much, imo), to paying 35% in 2003 (too little, imo).
    Even though it's actually much less (low teens) after deductions/exceptions.

    The only way to adjust revenue, is to tweak the upper end of the scale.
    Because any tweaking at the bottom end just doesn't matter. A 100% tax on the majority of the U.S. would still not fix our deficit.

    And this is all personal income tax.
    People need to remember that owners/executives are not paying their employees.
    The companies they established are paying both the owners/executives, and the regular employees.
    The company makes what it makes, and that pays for everyone.
    You tax the company at it's own rate - corporate income tax - unrelated to personal income taxes.

    Increasing wealth at the bottom creates customers - which requires a company to increase capacity - which requires hiring.

    Increasing wealth at the top provides a safety net for the wealthy (They already have more money than they can spend, so it goes in the bank).

    Increasing wealth for corporations still doesn't fix the problem of low demand - so there is no need to increase capacity, and no need to hire workers. No one will hire someone to sit around and do nothing.






    Furthermore, when you look at expenses:
    Medicare, Medicaid, Retirement, and interest on associated funds, costs more than our entire budget.

    You could eliminate 100% of all other federal spending, and you still don't make enough tax revenue to pay for just Medicare/Medicaid/Retirement.
    Roads, Military, etc, all cut 100%... and you're still in the hole.

    Ultimately, something needs to be done to control the massive medical costs in the U.S., and we need to get people retiring sensibly.

    Cost wise, medicine has reached the point of insanity.
    Over $1k for an ambulance ride. Over $10k for a helicopter lift. Around $2k for a night's room/board at a hospital [aside from any procedures/medication/etc].
    A head CT scan can run $10k. That's roughly 100x what it costs in Japan.
    A 6 hour procedure to install a stint can run $100k.
    People have pills for which they pay over $100 a day.
    And we're not even getting better medical care than in Europe/Orient. We're just getting fleeced.
    There needs to be an effort to reign in prices.

    When retirement was created, average life span was in the 60's. Retirement helped you for a couple years and that's it.
    Nowadays people are living 20/30 years on retirement. People that are perfectly healthy and could keep working.
    While some people (those doing hard physical labor) are physically broken and unable to work before they can even reach retirement.
    There needs to be some sort of physical exam needed to quality for retirement - and it should be available sooner. Let the sickly/weak/broken retire, and let the healthy keep working.





    IMO the only near term solution that has a chance in hell is :
    - Raise taxes on the top personal incomes
    - Restrict who can retire
    - Let a couple years pass, assess the effects, and go from there.

    There just isn't any other low-hanging fruit.


    And maybe just for good measure :
    - Lower taxes, eliminate deductions, with zero net effect. (Just to make it impossible to legally dodge paying taxes).

    -scheherazade
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2012
  20. airbud7

    airbud7 Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    7,563
    Likes Received:
    4,287
    GPU:
    pny gtx 1060 xlr8
    Wow...Nice Read^....

    scheherazade for President 2012...:)
     

Share This Page