AMD Vega To get 20K Units Released at launch and new Zen+ chatter

Discussion in 'Frontpage news' started by Hilbert Hagedoorn, May 9, 2017.

  1. Redemption80

    Redemption80 Ancient Guru

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    It is, and i'm not sure if people are unaware of the follow up facts or are just deliberately choosing to ignore those to push an opinion.

    TBF, if more AMD fans were like PrMinisterGR i think the company would be in a better place, they need more people who aren't spouting the good guy nonsense and even more people who don't just look at them as a budget brand
     
  2. PrMinisterGR

    PrMinisterGR Ancient Guru

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    I mean in for things much more beyond developers. The amount of open source tools, drivers and libraries they have put out of there deserves a lot of respect. They recently had 11k of lines of Linux driver rejected by the kernel, and instead of gtfo'ing as a lot of companies would do, they sat down and rewrote it in ways that will even inform the Windows binaries.

    Due to the consoles and the way the company is functioning now, they had to work from the people making the open source compilers like GCC or LLVM, to Apple, Microsoft, SONY, Nintendo, Hynix etc. Somewhere here we also have to mention that despite the immense space for friction left in all this, AMD doesn't seem to litigate with anyone except Intel, in a case that was later proven that AMD was completely correct about.

    What I wanted to say here is that being forced to be like that, AMD has more or less become a more open company in general. It's a dance with the devil kind of situation.
     
  3. sammarbella

    sammarbella Ancient Guru

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    There is no virtue to be open when you can't be otherwise. It's to be open when you can be close without consequences.

    If a poor human is humble that's not a big feat, give a fortune to this poor man and try again two weeks later.
     
  4. PrMinisterGR

    PrMinisterGR Ancient Guru

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    Companies are for-profit entities by default. It's just that lately people have started to realize that being open is more profitable in the long term, and better for the morale of the people working for and with you. Nobody wants to feel like they're Scrooge.

    I agree with you on the part that they were initially forced into this.
     

  5. Clouseau

    Clouseau Ancient Guru

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    Being a publicly traded company, there are strict guidelines on how financial figures are presented. There is a black and white structure Balance Sheets and Profit&Loss statements must follow. R&D is an above the line cost meaning it is tied into the production costs of it's hardware and services; part of the gross profit calculation. It may be broken out into more detail deeper in the document as how much was associated with which segment. The MDA section may give some insight into how the R&D is divided as well. SG&A are below the line costs. Always refer to their 10Ks, 10Qs, and official press releases for financial figures.

    Stock Market is all perception. How long did it take Amazon to actually turn a profit? http://www.ibtimes.com/amazon-nearly-20-years-business-it-still-doesnt-make-money-investors-dont-seem-care-1513368 . All that is cared about is potential and was that potential realized. All it is is an indicator for, if they need to raise cash with another public offering, what amount could they raise. All the trading after the offerings is just entities making money off other entities. Do not invest what you are not willing to lose. Unfortunately my 401K is all tied into the market because I want a larger return than guaranteed interest; greed.
     
  6. PrMinisterGR

    PrMinisterGR Ancient Guru

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    R & D isn't a mandatory item for any kind of financial statement, as it carries no financial sense. What you might call R & D is actual running cost, payments to hire new personnel, deals for patents, use and purchase of equipment etc. There is no GAAP rule for R & D. Companies can pretty much add whatever they want there. Trading has nothing to do with it, this is part of the financial statement that companies do in their country of financial residence.

    A very fast description from the Ycharts website (mostly because I'm not good in explaining things) :
    For a company like NVIDIA, all of its expenses could potentially be R & D. Even the payments they give to TSMC could be classified as such since each production run is essentially different from the previous one with constant iterations. The way they are reported, R & D expenses are indeed a marketing tool.

    And the definition goes on:
     
  7. Clouseau

    Clouseau Ancient Guru

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    All that needs to be posted is this:

    www.fasb.org/resources/ccurl/286/565/fas2.pdf

    Here is your GAAP rule for R&D

    EDIT: And if an item is capitalized it is just a delay of recognition of that expense; Depreciation...there are rules for that as well.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2017
  8. PrMinisterGR

    PrMinisterGR Ancient Guru

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    Is writing a drive R & D? Is rewriting a plugin for CUDA R & D? Is rearranging XOR gates R & D? The guidelines are there but they cannot be clear by nature. NVIDIA and AMD are design houses, so their whole existence could be classified as R & D.

    Look at the examples and see how archaic they are for companies that deal with hardware iterations through software. These are rules from 1974 that still apply, btw, and they are

    This would mean that driver development and API development aren't R & D costs, for example. They are troubleshooting, routine designs of tools. When is a GPU different enough so that it's not a "periodic design change" and not a full on new R & D product?

    Two things: The word "typically" there. There are no standard rules really, just recommendations unless you're a mining company.

    The guidelines themselves specifically say that R & D are in the end just expense, tax wise.

    Furthermore, they don't even require disclosure of the accounting practices that deal with how something is classified as R & D instead of a simple expense. So you can literally stuff any expense you have under there.

    They even tell us in the end that what they really care about is that any R & D isn't filed under "investment" but under "expenses", and that there isn't a way to tell R & D from normal expenses. Basically justifying that companies can pretty much say whatever they want about it as long as their expenses are properly filed as such and not as investment.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2017
  9. TieSKey

    TieSKey Member Guru

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    I get what u mean and is not "wrong" but it isn't completely "right" either.
    In the long term, reasons are lost and only facts remain.

    Think of it this way, u a re decent person, a good citizen, not because u were born like that but because your "parents"/"society" forced u to be that way, so u have no merit, u are bad in the inside(?).
    Crime is "meant" to be punished severely, so all people following the law are bad but have no other option to avoid punishment(?)

    In the end, does it matter if u don't commit crimes because u have a good heart or because u don't want to be sent to prison?

    (wow, this got a little philosophical :p)
     
  10. sammarbella

    sammarbella Ancient Guru

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    Just a little...:D

    We all know crimes and justice (legal punishment) are relative to defendant wealth, specially in Western countries where expensive attorneys make a HUGE difference in any lawsuit result.

    This is not philosophical anymore...It's everyday reality.
     

  11. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Ancient Guru

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    Yet, you still may end up in front of court which will not corrupt.
    In contrast to this there are countries where even murderer can pay himself out by goats/sheep/cows/horses/...

    So, one side of coin gives better chances with more wealth and other side gives no chances, but certainty to be free if you are rich enough.
     
  12. Kaarme

    Kaarme Ancient Guru

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    Yeah, while it's easy to blame Nvidia (I do that sometimes), in the end it makes perfect sense for Nvidia to do what they do. Nvidia knows how business works 1000% better than AMD. The real culprits are the game studios that think it's fine if AMD card owners can't enjoy the game because the majority of people have an Nvidia card anyway. Those devs are of course digging their own graves because a healthy situation in the GPU market would benefit them directly.

    Personally I feel it would be the best if no game sported either Nvidia or AMD logo in their credits. It smells like corruption and nothing else.
     
  13. jura11

    jura11 Ancient Guru

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  14. TieSKey

    TieSKey Member Guru

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    Couldn't agree more. But we went way too offtopic :p
     
  15. Clouseau

    Clouseau Ancient Guru

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    Your argument is funny. Needed the humor...yearly audit prep work pressure. "Typically" means you better have a sound argument why there is a deviation from not presenting those as such. If one can present why the deviation would unfairly misrepresent how the company is actually doing, then the deviation would be accepted but also the deviation would be disclosed in the 10K or 10Q and not as a footnote, a section all its own detailing what the impact would have been if accounted for in the way the rest of industry reports. You are correct in that they are "suggestions." The whole basis of accounting is that of a dynamically changing framework. Business evolves and so does presenting financial information for comparative purposes. What you have hit on is that R&D can differ from industry to industry. The key being industry wide acceptance/practice. Your argument is too loose. Have you ever looked at Intel's, AMD's, Nvidia's financials? You would see that not everything is accepted as R&D. Since the understanding is not completely there, it makes sense why the argument is put forth. Rest assured those that know what they are doing are being paid well to do so. Do not forget about the independent audit firms. They are not there to uncover f*r*a*u*d (some reason the word is censored). They are there to make sure that the financials being presented do no materially present a different picture from the supporting details and analysis.

    There are tax implications as well that need to be taken into account. Have to realize companies want to show as much expense as possible to lessen their income tax liability. That is why the requirement of the Cash Flow Statement is included in those SEC filed reports. One cannot just look at the two big traditional statements and obtain a complete picture of how healthy the company is. That is also why in the 10k's there is always mention of how the entity is aligned with the industry and how the outlook of the industry as a whole is headed and doing economically; typically part of the MDA section of the report. That is why Intel's or Nvidia's financial dealings are very important to AMD. They are an indication of how the industry as a whole is doing. Like has been stated by AMD themselves that there are two major companies that produce high end cpus and gpus. AMD happens to do both. All of which circles back to industry wide acceptance of what is considered R&D and what is not. Big picture stuff...not trees, forest.

    Look at what you skipped over in your over zealous presentation, what needs to be left out of the R&D disclosure...What the expense actually represents, since that would be an indicator to competitors what they could do to out do you in the market. This is where all your argument is actually based, not where you think it is. Not being an accountant type, it just was not understood what they were communicating in the pronouncement.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2017

  16. vbetts

    vbetts Don Vincenzo Staff Member

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  17. PrMinisterGR

    PrMinisterGR Ancient Guru

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    You seem to be an accountant proper, so I'll take your word for it. It's just that I've seen to much working as an Accountant assistant for a while, and I've seen even more while working in the tech sector. The industry wide acceptance is a bit muddy at points, with judgment calls made for a lot of types of expenses. In the end it's the company's integrity on the line towards their investors, more than the tax authorities (which will get the proper tax anyway, either it's declared as a running expense or R&D). This conversation has been quite enlightening really, thanks :)
     
  18. PrMinisterGR

    PrMinisterGR Ancient Guru

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    Is this the Ryzen/Vega APU unicorn? :nerd:

    Can you imagine a Surface with one of these babies in? :nerd:
     
  19. vbetts

    vbetts Don Vincenzo Staff Member

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    While I'm glad that ended very reasonably and polite, let's try not to have a discussion like that again please!
     
  20. Clouseau

    Clouseau Ancient Guru

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    Sorry to have taxed you with such boring conversation. (bad but just had to do it):nerd:

    Not often am able to have such conversations. Thankful for the conversation. Keeps me on my toes having been out of that sector for what seems like forever. Left the tech industry to Hollywood and now on the governmental side of the fence dealing with Federal & State grants (absolutely hate dealing with DC-some agencies are better than others: HUD,HHS, and EPA are on top of their game). The entire GL is where my integrity rests. It's been an interesting ride these last ten years. Boss and I both came from the public sector to here...quite the education for the both of us. He handles big picture, I make sure the organization passes the audit without a single finding.
     

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