AMD Pulls PCIe 4.0 Support on all non-X570 motherboards

Discussion in 'Frontpage news' started by Hilbert Hagedoorn, Aug 7, 2019.

  1. Hilbert Hagedoorn

    Hilbert Hagedoorn Don Vito Corleone Staff Member

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  2. anticupidon

    anticupidon Ancient Guru

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    Objectively, AMD doesn't want to have this feature on older chipsets, how could they justify the new one, or the forecoming ones?
    Now, having their new CPUs working on older chipsets/ motherboards is what they promised with AM4.
    Doesn't necessarily bothers me.
     
  3. rl66

    rl66 Ancient Guru

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    Not at all, there is lot of product on the way in PCIe 4.0...
    But it will take time, as for 2.0 or 3.0 in it's time, to be a fully adopted technology (and it will be faster due to SSD in PCIe 4.0)
    In the time i write you can still live in 3.0... SSD 4.0 aren't as cheap as 3.0 and there is even GPU with X16 connector that are in fact connected in X8...

    Also mainstream 5*0 motherboard would reach the shop at the end of summer...
    It would be better if there is less own concurence as in the actual generation where Asrock still sell X370 at price bellow B450's one.
     
  4. Ryu5uzaku

    Ryu5uzaku Ancient Guru

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    Tbh they old ones "support" it sure. But not being native I think this is a good move anyways.
     
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  5. JamesSneed

    JamesSneed Master Guru

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    People keep saying this without thinking it through. AMD makes no money off the cheap or expensive board sales. The only reason AMD did this is because they know through testing its going to be a nightmare and give them a bad image if they allow PCie 4 on older boards. I bet we would have heard lots of stories about SSD's and data loss if this were allowed. Then you add the fact nobody in the history of computing has had forward PCI compatibility built into motherboards. Having PCIE 4 is going to be huge going forward especially for IO.

    With that said I do not want a chipset fan. What most people don't know is that the Matisse IO die in Ryzen and the x570 chipset are actually the exact same floor plan but with different bits enabled. I fully expect AMD's next gen on 7nm+ will move the IO die along with the chipset to 7nm which will get the wattage down enough to passively cool the chipset.
     
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  6. schmidtbag

    schmidtbag Ancient Guru

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    Seems to me AMD shot themselves in the foot for adding PCIe 4.0. A little ironic how people would be happier if they just stuck with 3.0.

    I'm not sure I understand your question. What exactly needs justification? PCIe 4.0 (according to them) has stricter electrical tolerances. Newer boards (including cheaper ones) will have to be built to meet those tolerances. Of course, we just have to take their word for it, but as I said in yesterday's Gigabyte topic, AMD isn't the one defining the spec.
    Their CPUs do work on older chipsets and motherboards as promised. They promised nothing about PCIe forward compatibility with older boards. And even then, you're still getting PCIe; it's not like they're dropping it entirely. Sure, it leaves a bitter taste that it's being artificially disabled, but assuming AMD isn't exaggerating the tolerances, you're probably better off not using PCIe 4.0 on a B450 board.

    For consumer-grade stuff? Because I thought most of it was just SSDs and server hardware.
     
  7. anticupidon

    anticupidon Ancient Guru

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    @schmidtbag was a rhetorical question.
    And not at all well constructed.
    Yes, AMD didn't promised PCI-E 4.0 compatibility with older boards, only CPUs.
    And there's a benefit here on "older boards" for not having PCI-E 4.0.
    Less bugs at BIOS level, and have them cheaper.
    Those who want full benefits of the newest protocol, will go for X570.
     
  8. D3M1G0D

    D3M1G0D Ancient Guru

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    This makes sense. It's like a bridge designed with a certain load in mind - even if that bridge could theoretically support a much heavier load, it would be unwise to allow it (if it fails, then you will the one held responsible). Likewise, even if certain previous-gen boards could support PCIe 4.0, AMD cannot officially support it, nor can they leave it up to the manufacturers - if something goes wrong, they will be the ones held liable.
     
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  9. Aura89

    Aura89 Ancient Guru

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    This is a great example. Another example, electrically speaking, would be having 15 amp electrical box breaker with internal house wires rated for 20 amps over them. Then replacing the electrical box (CPU) which now supports 30 amps over a single breaker and not replacing the wiring with higher gauge 35 amp wiring(motherboard), yet trying to run 30 amps of electricity over it. This is how you cause fires (data loss/corruption)
     
  10. maddog55

    maddog55 Active Member

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    i just bought a Ryzen 7 3700x and decided to change my Crosshair Hero v1 to a new Asus Strix 570 Gaming - E board.
    i missed out the 2nd gen Zen to eventually upgrade to this setup.
     

  11. Jayp

    Jayp Member Guru

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    Except when you bought a Ryzen 3000 CPU already and it is working with PCIe 4.0 on your existing X470 motherboard you bought last year. I think this is bullshit to be quite honest. If they didn't want PCIe 4.0 on older boards they should have shut it down in the first place. Once your customers receive something it shouldn't be taken away. X570 boards are seriously over priced and most all have stupid chipset fans.

    It doesn't matter what AMD has said or has not said. What matters is that a working feature set made it to previous boards now it is getting removed. If PCIe never made it to the older boards and it was always just an X570 thing then it wouldn't be as much of an issue. Ryzen 3000 launch has been crap.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2019
  12. Denial

    Denial Ancient Guru

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    It's actually nothing like that because they didn't advertise PCI-E 4 on older boards, in fact they stated right from the start that they didn't support it and didn't want the motherboard companies supporting it either. Also your random anti-AMD injections in every AMD thread is getting tiresome. You never add any substance just flamebaiting. I'm reporting your posts from now on.
     
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  13. Hilbert Hagedoorn

    Hilbert Hagedoorn Don Vito Corleone Staff Member

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    @jaggerwild - you just received three warnings with respective points for borderline trolling. A 4th one kicks you off these forums, grow up!
     
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  14. schmidtbag

    schmidtbag Ancient Guru

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    I get that it's annoying to have a feature taken away, but, it isn't bullshit because you were never supposed to have it in the first place, and, you had no reason to expect to get it when you first bought that board. Only recently have the boards tapped into this feature, and AMD has shut it down relatively quickly. Why they didn't do it immediately, I'm not sure. I'm sure legal stuff got in the way, which always tends to slow things down.

    But hypothetically, if whatever PCIe 4.0 devices you have (speaking of which, do you even have any?) encountered data corruption, you would blame AMD for having a crappy implementation of it. If you disagree, then you wouldn't be complaining why AMD is doing this.

    Think of it like this:
    Let's say you found a wallet, took some cash out of it, and then returned it to the rightful owner. The owner points out that some money is missing. Do you really think you are right to keep that money? You can argue that you deserve something because you found the wallet and returned it, but that money was never yours to begin with. Had the owner not accidentally dropped the wallet, it's not like they'd have just given you the same amount of cash for no reason. The honorable thing would be to take nothing and hope that the owner gives you something for your honesty.
    Keep in mind - AMD never gave the motherboard manufacturers the AGESA code to unlock PCIe 4.0 on older boards; they modified the code themselves (which is kinda the equivalent of taking money of the the wallet they found). So, assuming some (realistically, not all) of these motherboards are actually capable of the PCIe 4.0 spec, AMD could've done the noble thing and granted permission to a handful of exceptions (which is the equivalent of compensating the person for being honest).

    The moral of the story is - you aren't entitled anything you unexpectedly receive, especially if you were never supposed to.
     
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  15. kakiharaFRS

    kakiharaFRS Master Guru

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    only decision that made sense for AMD, motheboard manufacturer only implemented this to have an advantage against other companies or has a "feature" to sell older chipset, certainly not as a 100% guaranteed and tested feature for the customer

    anyways I'll link Hilbert excellent review on the Corsair 600 again https://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/corsair_mp600_pcie_4_nvme_ssd_review,20.html
    I actually had it in my basket and was ready to order except they didn't have any in stock now they do but I'm more than happy to keep my current 970pro as it's almost the same, if anything PCIE 4.0 highlighted the 970 evo plus that I totally missed and which seems the best for normal use like copying files or games
     

  16. Aura89

    Aura89 Ancient Guru

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    This is a misconception in the first place.

    Just because motherboards got PCI-Express 4.0 working on chipsets under the x570 doesn't mean they were stable and working correctly. It'd be a pretty difficult thing to test and ensure nothing is going wrong with it currently. So my question to you is, if you have a motherboard where they enabled it, do you have any actual PCI-Express 4.0 parts utilizing PCI-Express 4.0? No, i'm not asking if you have PCI-Express 3.0 (Your 2080 ti for instance) GPU cards working flawlessly when it was updated to 4.0, and i'm not really even interested in PCI-Express 4.0 cards such as the x5700/xt, since they don't even remotely saturate PCI-Express 3.0, therefore they won't really be hammering the 4.0 lanes. I'm asking things like NVME 4.0 drivers. Are you using them to their highest, constantly, over months? (even though it hasn't been out for months)

    Do you wish to have PCI-Express 4.0 running out of spec and to find out 6 months down the line things you have been downloading to the drive are corrupted?

    I find the amount of people here who are completely fine with their data potentially getting corrupted amazing.

    So you're saying because AMD released an AGESA with code in it that the MOTHERBOARD MANUFACTURERS tweaked to access a feature AMD never intended for the motherboard manufacturers to enable, is somehow AMDs fault? Personally i could see this as a potential lawsuit against the motherboard manufacturers for going against AMD and causing people like you to blame them instead of the motherboard manufactuers.

    AMD never took anything away from anyone. Motherboard manufacturers are the ones who decided to challenged AMD to try and stay ahead of other motherboard manufacturers who were not enabling PCI-Express 4.0 on their boards, and got a slap on the hand because of it since it doesn't meet PCI-Express 4.0 specs.

    So blame the motherboard manufacturers, they are the ones who teased people with PCI-Express 4.0 only to have to remove it in the end. Or stay on the older BIOS and potentially get corrupted information.
     
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  17. waltc3

    waltc3 Maha Guru

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    AMD never supported PCIe4 on pre-x570 motherboards. So, they couldn't have "pulled" it since they never supported it. Indeed, before 7/7 AMD had announced publicly that they would *not* be supporting PCIe4 on pre-x570 motherboards, so this is also no surprise. As GB found after attempting to implement it on older chipset boards where it didn't work--PCIe4 needs a lot more than a chipset to function properly. Basically, trying to implement PCIe4 into a motherboard never designed for PCIe4 was an experiment run by the motherboard OEMs--never sanctioned by AMD. It's difficult to understand why the motherboard vendors did that, actually! I imagine they'd welcome a million x370/x470 motherboard warranty returns because "PCIe4 mode doesn't work" about as much as a hole in the head....;) I mean, it was the motherboard vendors themselves who stated publicly that the x570 mboards would be "more expensive" because they had to be made to more exacting requirements because of the need to preserve PCIex4 signal integrity! I'm baffled as to why the motherboard OEMs would even try this.
     
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  18. Aura89

    Aura89 Ancient Guru

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    This is something i feel people are forgetting very easily. Before Zen 2/X570 was officially announced/released, there was speculation that PCI-Express 4.0 working on select motherboards that were not x570. AMD shut this down in the beginning of June, one month and a week almost before the release.

    There's just Intel fanboys/employees that are trying to make it sound as though the story is different and against AMD.
     
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  19. RooiKreef

    RooiKreef Master Guru

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    Personally I think this is more a matter of people not really buying into the whole expensive X570 platform for virtually no gain to X470. So they want to force people to buy X570.
     
  20. Aura89

    Aura89 Ancient Guru

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    Yes, totally logical. That's why the x570 has a chipset that on most motherboards require a chipset fan, something people don't generally want. But hey all the motherboard manufacturers are just adding something that's not required that will make people not buy it for no reason, and PCI-Express 4.0 absolutely works without it, because that's a smart business move....

    The whole "I don't buy it" statement would make a lot more sense if the fan wasn't borderline required on these chipsets, otherwise people who state it are just stating they they think the motherboard manufacturers are making their products less desirable and more expensive to make for literally no reason, as if companies would spend more money and make decisions that go against their sales.....
     

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