AMD Mantle API (Low level hardware access)

Discussion in 'Videocards - AMD Radeon Catalyst Drivers Section' started by shadow_craft, Sep 26, 2013.

  1. shadow_craft

    shadow_craft Member Guru

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  2. The Mac

    The Mac Ancient Guru

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    Thats fine, but it has to be supported by the game engine.
     
  3. Anvi

    Anvi Member Guru

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    I predict that it's going to be buggy as hell :(

    If it works and performs better than Titan with DirectX, then I'll consider buying R9 290X.
     
  4. The Mac

    The Mac Ancient Guru

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    Youll be waiting a couple years before there any more than a handful of games using frostbite which so far is the only engine to use it.
     

  5. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Ancient Guru

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    Open platform, free for grabbing. Once BF4 confirms that it is viable and allows stunning effects a lot of developers just ports their code to it.
    Otherwise at time they release game it will look obsolete.
    And graphics sells most of games today, Look at crysis series. Nearly no story, boring development and lack of ideas. Big portions of game are so dull player just cloaks and skip fights.
    And it still sold a lot of copies, people are purchasing better HW to play it maxed...
     
  6. kcuestag

    kcuestag Master Guru

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    Battlefield 4 is the only game I'm looking forward to play in the next 2-3 years, so I am very happy to hear we'll have the Mantle API on BF4 on my 7970's! :D
     
  7. The Mac

    The Mac Ancient Guru

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    Not that simple, it must be supported by the GAME ENGINE. Not the game itself.

    As mentioned, the only engine support as of december will be Frostbite.
     
  8. shadow_craft

    shadow_craft Member Guru

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    I'm not sure why some of you are trying to down-play this :3eyes:

    This has been the reason consoles have been able to pull off great looking games on lower-end hardware.

    This is the answer PC gamers have been looking for.

    It seems Mantle is very similar to the low-level api of the xbox one, meaning games should be able to get ported easily.

    Mantle is open, meaning Nvidia/Intel can develop it for their hardware as well. (can't do that with PhysX)

    Sure it will take some time to fully develop and be used with games, but BF4/Frostbite3 is a big step in that direction.

    Besides, this is cross-platform. DirectX is NOT (M$ even likes to limit new DX on newer Windows only)
    This should give another boost to Linux gaming hopefully.

    The future is looking bright for PC Gamers
     
  9. cyclone3d

    cyclone3d Master Guru

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    Why would it be really buggy? Did you ever play any games with a 3dfx card that used Glide? Glide gave better performance than DX and OGL and was less buggy than DX and OGL back in the day.

    Maybe, maybe not.
     
  10. The Mac

    The Mac Ancient Guru

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    im not down trying to downplay it, i think its great if it gets widespread adoption

    It just not going to be significant with this generation of cards due to the lead time on game development.
     

  11. Unwinder

    Unwinder Moderator Staff Member

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    Because it is a step back from universal vendor independent API to 3dfx Glide and S3 Metal era. Both of those low-level APIs and both GPU vendors who tried to rely on those API are "dead".

    Does "low-level" term tell you anything? Even if it will be 100% open, it is seriously specific to AMD GPU architecture. So providing Mantle support on different hardware will be most likely ineffective, I am afraid that we can forget about seeing support for it in NV/Intel drivers.
     
  12. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Ancient Guru

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    This should have been clear enough: "developers just ports their code to it"
     
  13. The Mac

    The Mac Ancient Guru

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    What dont you people get?

    the ENGINE must support it, NOT the game.

    for the most part game developers dont make the engine, someone else does.

    For eample Unreal Engine 3: a buttload of games were made with that engine.

    UE3 itself would need to be modified to support Mantle.

    since dice/ea makes the Frosbite engine inhouse, they have a bit of a leg up with bf4

    a great majority of delvelopers do not use inhouse engines.

    My point is with a typical 4 year development cycle on games, anyone currently at least halfway through their development cycle will have no chance of using mantle.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2013
  14. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Ancient Guru

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    Look at situation realistically:
    Right now you can make something like ratio between number of rendered elements/effects on screen per transistor with hard barrier which you would have problems to pass.
    We at PC market are hitting that wall right now, getting stronger GPU may not allow us to get much better results (immersive graphics).

    If this API can move such barrier just 3 times farther and increase number of elements to that limit. Then AMD does not have to be afraid to die due not using "standard" which some shady based company like m$ imposed into PC world.

    Because AMD may actually benefit from such improvement on platform like PS4/PC-linux (I believe Sony will be happy to get more players.). And so that means... PC either adapts to benefit which Consoles will have, or it will be behind just partially since AMD will have those Console games on PC too.

    AMD claims are likely based on analysis of what they believe is potential blocked by DX API. M$ can try to block their drivers by not signing them, but that is all. And I guess that will not happen.

    There are points where it's "evolve or die", not "stagnate to live". And if potential benefit is that high then evolution is way which will be supported by paying market.
     
  15. Unwinder

    Unwinder Moderator Staff Member

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    Look at situation realistically as well. The comments about "standard" which some shady based company like m$ imposed into PC world are way too far from reality. Became a developer, then make a choice between targeting your product on roughly 1/3 of market (assuming that NV, AMD and Intel share equal parts of it, which is also far from reality) or on full market supporting "standard" which some shady based company like m$ imposed into PC world. Then you'll see it realistically. That's not an evolution for industry at all.
     

  16. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Ancient Guru

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    http://www.moddb.com/engines/top

    Looks like there are in list around 330 engines which are used.
    One can only guess which of those will adopt it after Frostbite.
    Unity? id Tech? Or some of GPLs? Does it matter? Once some gets way ahead of others they will have to adapt or stay behind.
    Most of games I own (over 250) have proprietary engines of engines like UE with heavy modifications.

    Real thing is that game engines are created in matter of months, but game content, script testing are things which take years. And in that time Engine has to again evolve. Complete game code can be ported to other platform in few months. (like from PS3 to XBox360/PC = different on HW & API level)

    Teams targeting consoles will not have hard time in making decision. On PC it will be hard decision at 1st because number of GPUs supported is now limited but with every year this will be much easier.
    (Frostbite consist of guys who were not afraid to step in front and drop DX9 in BF3, To drop 32bit in BF4. To adopt new technology which gives edge over others. Their approach can't be called "Discouraging" because it's "Inspiring!".)

    For those who target cross platform this is nobrainer.
     
  17. shadow_craft

    shadow_craft Member Guru

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    That would only be due to choices at NV/Intel

    This is an open-low-level driver, something that can be implemented by anybody!

    Unlike Glide, unlike PhysX

    DirectX can only be used on 1 operating system, and while OpenGL is an alternative, Mantle seems to show much more promise.


    Mantle + Linux Gaming is a dream I have now
     
  18. The Mac

    The Mac Ancient Guru

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    ummm...this is what i was saying.

    Its going to take at least a couple years for it to be adopted en-mass. Assuming it does at all. Delvelopers would have to make a choice to code for 2 render paths - DX, and Mantle. Thats a lot of man hours. In the mean time titles using it will be minimal

    Also, Dice/EA will not be dropping dx for mantle.

    Mantle will be an alternate rendering path, much like games that have a dx9/dx10 switch.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2013
  19. The Mac

    The Mac Ancient Guru

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    Manlte is an API.

    no matter how low level it is, it still requires a driver.
     
  20. shadow_craft

    shadow_craft Member Guru

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    Of course, but what I was trying to say is...

    Mantle is cross-platform unlike DirectX

    It's a step in the right direction IMO
     

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