AMD and Nvidia prep for next-gen DirectX 12

Discussion in 'Frontpage news' started by Hilbert Hagedoorn, Mar 24, 2015.

  1. sykozis

    sykozis Ancient Guru

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    Windows8.1 is only getting DX11.3.
     
  2. Extraordinary

    Extraordinary Ancient Guru

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  3. sykozis

    sykozis Ancient Guru

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    Windows never has. It would increase the cost of Windows to include the DVD codec as it's licensed code and not free.

    MS is great at backtracking. That seems to be their signature move the last few years...
     
  4. Kaotik

    Kaotik Member Guru

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    The biggest problem is the same as with DX11.1 and Windows 7. To implement the new DX, which relies on new WDDM, you'd need huge changes to the underlying OS.

    Just like with Win7 & DX11.1 / WDDM 1.3, changes required to implement WDDM 2.0 (required by DX12) would require modifying the OS's core components, which would break million other things which then need to be fixed.

    They are (or at least were) planning to bring some features as DX11.3, but the actual "low-level" API can't be done.
    So you might get new features, but you won't get the performance benefits of DX12
     

  5. vbetts

    vbetts Don Vincenzo Staff Member

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    This. From what I understand, WDDM 2.0 is more reliant on the kernel version of NT which is not being back ported to Windows 7.
     
  6. mbk1969

    mbk1969 Ancient Guru

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    Guys, are you sure DX11.3 correlates to WDDM1.3? As I take it first is DX feature level, and second is display driver model version.
     
  7. Extraordinary

    Extraordinary Ancient Guru

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    Thanks for the explanation, yea looks like that's a bit of a stopper then, I just hope they do something very good with 10 before RTM, which is rumoured for 5 months time....
     
  8. 17seconds

    17seconds Member

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    I'm wondering about the difference between DirectX 12.0 and DirectX 12.1. These articles make it seem like any recent generation card is fully capable, but apparently at this point only Maxwell can do the full DX 12.1 due to its hardware implementation. It would be great to see more written about this and really get it explained as to whether this is indeed a big deal.
     
  9. trentbg

    trentbg Active Member

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    Ha, sure its not about greed and totally not about money at all...Can't believe you went out of your way to advocate for M$!
     
  10. jbmcmillan

    jbmcmillan Ancient Guru

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    Actually Win 7 could play dvds but they dropped it in 8 not sure if it was all versions.
     

  11. Kaotik

    Kaotik Member Guru

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    No, it doesn't correlate to WDDM 1.3.
    But it's only coming for WDDM 1.3 anyway, because it's only coming for Windows 8.1 (assuming it comes at all)**
    Same reasons why DX11.1 could never be fully implemented on Win7.

    **Could be coming for Win10 too, but I don't really see a point for that.

    They separated Media Center from Win 8, but it was (IIRC) offered for free for Win 8 Pro users for a while (later they added a cost if you hadn't gotten it while it was free)

    Yeah, actually they have working DirectX 12 for MS-DOS 1.10 and every single OS since but they're just greedy and holding them to themselves
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2015
  12. vbetts

    vbetts Don Vincenzo Staff Member

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    Yup. They are going to backport a feature in a newer, faster, stable kernel to a kernel they will no longer support. Makes perfect sense.
     
  13. Kaotik

    Kaotik Member Guru

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    There's no DirectX 12.1.

    There's DirectX 12, which includes Direct3D Feature Level 11_0, 11_1, 12_0 and 12_1 (which are in some slides mentioned as 11.0/11.1/12.0/12.1 to make it "easier" for the reader who isn't as familiar with them as some others)

    Currently only known thing is that Maxwell Gen 2. supports DX12 / Feature Level 12_1
    Fermi, Kepler and Maxwell Gen 1 supports DX12 with unknown Feature Level. It's known they support minimum of 11_0, as that's what they do on DX11 too. It's unlikely they could support 12_0 because they can't support 11_1 either. Also they're lacking on the UAV department (which is also one of the reasons they can't do 11_1)

    GCN 1.0, 1.1 and 1.2 supports DX12 with unknown Feature Level. It's 11_1 minimum as they support it in DX11 too, but it might be 12_0 since they fulfill at least the UAV requirements on 12_0 and possibly the rest too. One possibility, too, is that 1.0 would be 11_1 and 1.1 & 1.2 12_0

    Intel Gen 7.5 and newer (or was it 7?) support DX12 at unknown feature level, they might be 11_0, 11_1 or 12_0 depending on iGPU generation, not really sure on these.

    edit:
    And for the sake of it, GCN "1.3" aka Fiji will be the first discrete GPU to support whole DX12. While Maxwell Gen 2 supports Feature Level 12_1, it's limited to Tier 2 at least in Binding Resources. AMD does Tier 3 even on current hardware, and will do on Fiji too (but the current hardware lacks some 12_1 features so they don't do that)
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2015
  14. blkspade

    blkspade Master Guru

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    See they haven't made it universally free. Enterprise users are excluded, as well as people still on vista and older. Even though they include pirated users being able to upgrade, anyone still running a legitimate copy of Vista probably isn't going to suddenly pirate the newer OS on their own. They will undoubtedly still be charging whatever they charge OEMs for licenses, which is the core of their OS revenue anyway.

    So as opposed to thinking up some inevitable trickery, I'm seeing an overall plan where its just universally better of MS and its partners to get as many people on a single platform as possible. I see Vista going EOL like XP. It stands to reason that DX12 will see better/faster adoption rate if devs believe there will be a greater install base with it basically being free. Basically any and all devs that are solely in DX11 right now anyway. Then there is getting everyone to a place where they have the Windows Store (7 users) in a single platform (8/8.1 users). The biggest reason people are still on 7 (outside not wanting/being able to pay for 8.1) is out of disgust for the interface though 8 is technically superior otherwise.
     
  15. koliko

    koliko Member

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    Absolutely agree. However thinks that Win 10 will not be about the money more than any previous versions is simply naive.

    Yes you can prove many technical challenges which are needed for implementing dx12 but that has nothing to do with new windows 10 approach.

    You have metro (much worst than aero from 2007) you have icons (worse than on win 98) and most importantly runing win 10 - you have less control over your OS than in all previous versions. That has nothing to do with dx12..
     

  16. vbetts

    vbetts Don Vincenzo Staff Member

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    Enterprise is not excluded. We already have gotten word from Microsoft as well as other school districts in the area are the reasons to move to Windows 10(we just moved to Windows 7 since XP support dropped), the main advantage listed was no licensing Fee excluding virtual properties(Remote desktop licensing).
     
  17. Kaotik

    Kaotik Member Guru

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    It depends on what kind of Enterprise license you have. Some qualify for free upgrade, some don't, apparently.
     
  18. vbetts

    vbetts Don Vincenzo Staff Member

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    Only ones that do not are licenses used for Virtual desktop instances, and this is because they are moving from having a license per instance to having a single license per amount of instances. Example a license for up to 10, or a license for up to 20.
     
  19. Dazz

    Dazz Master Guru

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    No Microsoft have said it's DX12 is only on Windows 10 thats why they are giving Windows 10 as a free upgrade for all windows 7+ users to increase the uptake and get everyone on a single operating system which should make it better for them to support.
     
  20. Kaotik

    Kaotik Member Guru

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    Current official and public information says that only Active Software Assurance customers have access to free Win 10 upgrade on Enterprise-editions.
     

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