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Adobe Flash HW Acceleration / AMD Overdrive driver bug - who else can reproduce this?

Discussion in 'Videocards - AMD Radeon Drivers Section' started by freibooter, Aug 2, 2013.

  1. freibooter

    freibooter Active Member

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    I just filed a bug report with AMD about this long standing and serious (can cause system instability) issue:

    So far all drivers from 13.4 as well as all subsequent beta drivers are affected (haven't tried anything earlier than that, I just recently switched to AMD from Nvidia).

    Only Adobe's official Flash Plugin (in Firefox or Internet Explorer, including the one with the Windows 8's native plugin) causes this driver bug to occur but not Google Chrome's integrated Flash. While Adobe may be responsible for triggering it, this is clearly a driver issue - no software or plugin should be able to randomly adjust clock speeds, especially without UAC/admin rights!

    I know this can be reproduced on other systems with Windows 8 and HD 7850/7870 (Pitcairn).

    I'd like to know if any of you can reproduce this on other Radeon cards, other Windows versions as well as single or triple monitor setups.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2013
  2. Offler2

    Offler2 Member Guru

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    This bug also cannot be reproduced on Opera (12.15) with Adobe Flash plugin. In this case my GPU clocks to 501Mhz and remains on this frequency as long there is browser with flash opened.

    Because Chrome and IE are using same core, its probable that they are responsible for that behavior. According what I read and tested IE and Chrome are trying to operate with GPU power management in same way as with CPU. Thats wrong.

    I am not familiar if FF has much different core, but according to things I have seen, the behavior is very similar to IE in this case...

    In this case I have to side with AMD, and support their statement that its a browser bug, not a driver bug.
     
  3. DrunkenDonkey

    DrunkenDonkey Master Guru

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    Yep Opera user here, this thing results in:
    - run flash, one of the monitors becomes complete desynchronized mess of color and flashing, stops when I kill the browser or
    - when changing memory frequency when there is a video running then stopping that video results in monitor becoming mess and I >>NEED<< to have flash running in order to see my display or
    - total system freeze and need to restart, the very second I run flash

    Games/benchmarks are rock stable ofc.
     
  4. Pill Monster

    Pill Monster Banned

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    Um Adobe Flash uses UVD clocks just like all other videos with HW acceleration, Catalyst Overdrive and MSI AB only adjust 3D clock speeds, not UVD.
     

  5. xacid0

    xacid0 Master Guru

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    my card will use UVD clock on IE, FFox and Opera, not Chrome. Hardware Acceleration enabled.
     
  6. freibooter

    freibooter Active Member

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    Is there any sane reason for "UVD clocks"?

    I assume there must be a good reason why the memory clock is kept at a constant level on dual (or more) monitor systems, or why would AMD waste that much of their customer's energy?

    The fact that a constantly changing memory clocks through these clock changes whenever a video is played eventually cause image corruptions and system freezes kind of supports this theses ... but I see absolutely no reason to override max clocks speed when using video acceleration.

    Using higher clock speeds than in idle - sure, makes sense!
    Overriding all and any maximum clock speeds - no, sorry, you lost me, especially since it causes some serious problems, at least on multi-monitor setups with custom memory clocks.
     
  7. Offler2

    Offler2 Member Guru

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    Well - previously with HD5850 i had trouble with video decoding. While any video was running and GPU acceleration was used, GPU clocked to UVD and remained on that setting regardless I started any 3d engine which required higher frequency.

    This was not happenning to me since I upgraded to HD 7870 and later to HD 7970. Due this I am absolutely sure that even if HD7000 series brought a lot of new trouble, this one was solved.
     
  8. freibooter

    freibooter Active Member

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    It not locking them there, that's not the problem, the UVD clocks are only used during playback and the card reverts back to the regular clocks as soon as the video stops.

    I guess the real questions are:

    Why is the memory clock never adjusted in a multi-monitor setup except during HW accelerated video playback?
    If constantly changing the memory clock isn't a problem, then why not do it all the time and quite a bit of energy during idle?
    If constantly changing the memory clock is a problem (and in my experience with this bug, it is) then why do it during each play and stop operation when playing videos?

    Why change the maximum clocks to their BIOS defaults during video playback at all?

    A stock overclocked card like mine reverts to 1250 Mhz memory clock, the exact same card with a non-OCed BIOS reverts to 1200 Mhz. There is absolutely no sane reason for doing this.
    Manually adjusted max clock speeds should be heeded at all times.

    UVD clock speeds aren't magical numbers - I get that there is a reason to adjust idle speeds, but max speeds that affect everything else and cause stability issues ... why?
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2013
  9. Espionage724

    Espionage724 Guest

    I can't recall the thread, but I noted Google Chrome's flash player's hardware acceleration seems to play a lot nicer than Adobe's.

    I'll get around to testing specific stuff in the first post though at some point.
     
  10. freibooter

    freibooter Active Member

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    I read up a bit on UVD clocks, looks like they have essentially been an issue for several generations of AMD cards now to various degrees ... I seriously doubt AMD will ever address this issue since it seems semi-intentional (like their ridiculously idiotic default overscan on anything connected via HDMI that needs to be disabled for every resolution separately).

    It's pointless and causes stability issues in combination with Overdrive, it can only be fixed via BIOS modding (which AMD actively prevents these days and is basically no longer possible) or by not over-/underclocking or by completely avoiding HW accelerated video.

    In short: Do you like to watch videos or Youtube while gaming? Want to overclock your memory clock, watch videos and still have a stable system?
    Buy an Nvidia card ... which I guess I should have done, since I do like those things ... dammit :(
     

  11. DrunkenDonkey

    DrunkenDonkey Master Guru

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    Playing Assassin's Creed atm, card clocked a bit, but below stock voltage, stable, cool... and I alt-tab to see some video help and monitor goes nuts, had to alt+f4 the browser blindly... yeah I DO like to play videos while gaming, this is ridiculous...
    Happens with that 13.8 too :(
     
  12. Tazmonian

    Tazmonian New Member

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    Or you know, turn off flash hardware acceleration. Flash's CPU utilization is negligible with HW acceleration off, even while watching @1080p and HTML5's is even better. Youtube has an HTML5 beta you can opt into here.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2013
  13. Espionage724

    Espionage724 Guest

    ... Or use Google Chrome and it's included Flash Player instead of Adobe's, or as suggested, the HTML5 player on YouTube and other sites, or possibly even Mozilla's Shumway thing (if it's usable).

    Or even also as suggested, use software-accelerated flash.
     
  14. freibooter

    freibooter Active Member

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    Except for the fact that Flash video looks like Blokkoland without HW acceleration, no matter how fast the CPU. Not all videos on YouTube are available as HTML 5 video and it's missing a lot of features. Shumway is in its infancy and barely usable and Firefox still does things that Chrome does not ... even if we ignore the whole freedom and tracking thing.

    Seriously, this is a totally messed up driver problem that one again only afflicts AMD cards. I shouldn't have to work around it, but AMD doesn't give a **** and I seriously doubt it will ever be fixed.
     
  15. Tazmonian

    Tazmonian New Member

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    I have zero pixelation in Youtube Flash @1080p and 720p, twitch.tv @1080p and 720p(depending on the streamer's own settings), Vimeo HD, Netflix HD(silverlight w/o hw accel), HBO Go HD, or Uverseonline ATT with my 2500k both at stock and at my current OC of 4.6ghz. Your i5 2400 should have no problem with software-accelerated flash videos.

    Sounds more like an internet issue sending you into "Blokkoland" or you're really looking hard for a reason to go green.
     

  16. freibooter

    freibooter Active Member

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    My CPU is more than fast enough, so is my 50 Mbit/s Internet connection. I experience zero additional pixelation of the core material with HW off. I do, however, also experience zero video post-processiong and smoothing without HW acceleration in Flash - which is documented and expected behavior when toggling HW acceleration off.

    It's actually the lower resolution videos suffering the most, it's a less notable with 1080p videos which still aren't exactly available everywhere.

    So the solution to a serious an endemic problem AMD apparently refuses to address is to disable video HW acceleration everywhere in order not to trigger it? And when I consider that a rather serious trade off, I'm accused of just looking for reasons to switch to a company's product that never had these issue (switching, btw, isn't even an option for me at this time).

    I guess the only way we could ever get this fixed would be for Nvidia to make a big deal out of the fact that their products can be slightly over- or underclocked and shockingly still play HW accelerated video (Oooohhh!!) - Nvidia's marketing is pretty much the only reason AMD ever even bothered to give us the frame smoothing driver we just got.

    Sadly the chances of that happening are rather slim ... and as long as AMD fanboys are clearly perfectly happy with problems like this, why fix them?
     
  17. freibooter

    freibooter Active Member

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    Ok, since everyone seems to believe that disabling HW acceleration in Flash has no impact on video quality.

    This is the first video that popped up for me when entering 480p in Youtube (the problem is more notable on non native resolutions):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaGq_8Ilyy0

    Fullscreen, 480p, HW acceleration enabled:

    http://i.imgur.com/1We0KCz.jpg

    Fullscreen, 480p, HW acceleration disabled (and after a browser restart):

    http://i.imgur.com/1vdC0I7.png

    Now, beside the Youtube Player no longer scaling properly, can anyone honestly tell me that there is no difference in visual quality between the two (please note the artifacts from primitive CPU based scaling)?
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2013
  18. dellon132

    dellon132 Ancient Guru

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    The image using Hardware Acceleration looks slightly better. I recommend playing videos in 1080p then comparing between the two. This way it will make things much clearer.

    Try it with this Video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsrPTpg6mNo
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2013
  19. freibooter

    freibooter Active Member

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    The big issue is the completely abysmal scaling Flash uses without hardware acceleration (the same goes for WMP and many more for that matter).

    1080p videos on a 1920x1080 display don't require scaling, so this will make things a lot less obvious (although the video without HW acceleration is still worse and more jerky, it's hard to capture this lack of smoothness in screenshots).

    But even if the problem weren't an issue with 1080p videos (it is, just not as notable), not every freakking video is available in 1080p - the resolution is still in the minority, really.

    My point is: disabling video HW acceleration to avoid triggering AMD's idiotic UVD clocks is not an option without trade-offs (rather serious ones in my eyes) - despite what some of the AMD fanboys have been claiming earlier.
     
  20. Espionage724

    Espionage724 Guest

    Chrome's PPAPI flash player (afaik) works fine. It's Adobe's causing the problem. Chrome's flash player is a fork of Adobe's. The point being, Chrome's flash player manages to not have this issue, and therefore is doing something different than Adobe's.

    So as an alternate way of viewing this issue, maybe it's Adobe who needs to look into things? Adobe and AMD afaik aren't in any kind of pact or anything, so it would make more sense for Adobe to make sure Flash works on AMD hardware.
     

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