A 500Hz refresh rate NVIDIA G-Sync compatible gaming LCD is in the works

Discussion in 'Frontpage news' started by Hilbert Hagedoorn, May 24, 2022.

  1. ManofGod

    ManofGod Ancient Guru

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    This is cool and all but, isn't OLED a better technology than what this would offer, even if it is only 120hz G Sync?
     
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  2. Robbo9999

    Robbo9999 Ancient Guru

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    Well, Mark Rejhon of Blur Busters was showing you that this is the case if you want to be sure to avoid mouse jitter, I think he said it was more noticeable on strobed displays though (so when ULMB active).
    You'll still get significantly more motion blur with 120Hz OLED than you would with a ULMB strobed LCD screen. OLED screens look amazing though in terms of contrast and colours. It is very tempting to get OLED just for that reason, but they won't have better motion blur than strobed displays, I don't know if there are OLED screens that also have strobing as an option.
     
  3. Robbo9999

    Robbo9999 Ancient Guru

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    @mdrejhon, I was researching monitors after our discussions and saw you did a Blur Busters Approved monitor called "ViewSonic Elite XG270" (https://blurbusters.com/blur-busters-approved ).
    I then saw a used version of this on Amazon for just £239, supposed "Used - Very Good - Small cosmetic imperfection on top, front or sides of item. Item will come in original packaging. Packaging will be damaged." It's a 240Hz IPS GSYNC/Freesync monitor and has a long list (as I understand) of different refresh rates to choose from for BFI. I noticed it's firmware upgradeable, how do I make sure it has your latest firmware on it & how do I upgrade it - from your site or ViewSonic? Given that it's a used monitor, is there anything specific that I should look for on this particular model to make sure it's in proper working order? And finally, do you think I'll notice an improvement with this monitor vs my current G2460PG? This XG270 was a bit of a sudden/quick impulse buy when I saw it was one of your approved monitors and also "only" £239, I kind of felt it was snooze or lose deal as there was only 1 unit left!!
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2022
  4. tunejunky

    tunejunky Ancient Guru

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    No, you Do Not get "significantly" more motion blur w/ OLED than ULMB, and ULMB has it's own artefacts and is very limited in refresh rates so that is not true. my 27" G-Sync monitor has ULMB and my 55" OLED doesn't.
    furthermore, the 0 sec "gtg" on objects in motion has accurate color and detail missing on IPS (which as i mentioned i have, but in this case 144Hz) makes a huge and Dynamic (literally) difference with True Black.

    if you are into first person shooters, then YES a strobed display may be the one for you. but the best displays do not need to "cheat" for VRR. the strobe is there for less capable gpus and is a "good" feature for budgetary reasons.

    but let's be very clear - a stroboscopic effect will make some people ILL, even if they do not "notice" the strobe. AND because of different LEDs used to strobe there are frequency issues between brands - some (or none) may make you ill more than others (not all "white" is white... or even close) and i mean frequency of pulses as well as frequency of light.
    also in the interest of being clear - stroboscopic effects are "snapshots" in time which typically
    do not correspond with the higher frame rates. that is, the strobe is set for certain frequencies which your gpu may be able to better, but you wouldn't see it because the action is happening between pulses.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2022

  5. mdrejhon

    mdrejhon Member Guru

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    Keep in mind that mouse overclocking doesn’t create the expected results on all mice brands — sometimes it produces improvements, and sometimes it doesn’t solve the jitter. Not all non-native-Hz mice de-jitters during overclocking.

    You can give it a try and see if things go smoother, but YMMV. Sometimes you get certain effects (like slight lag reduction but no jitter reduction).

    I recommend a real native 8 KHz mouse even when downclocking their poll to 2000 Hz. At least you know it’s native poll rate with the minimum possible aliasing-effect between mouse Hz and display Hz & fps

    Also 2000 Hz is more compatible with more games than 4000 Hz and 8000 Hz so you have to with your weakest link. Use 4000 if you can, but be prepared to use 2000 depending on your system.

    8000 Hz can hog so much CPU that it reduces the frame rate of the game, and 2000 Hz gets you 90% of the benefits with 75% less CPU usage in the mouse driver than 8000 Hz. So depending on your use case, 2000 Hz, 4000 Hz or 8000 Hz will work best in different games on different systems. Also some USB ports are not reliable at 8000 Hz, so some people buy a PCIe USB port card for their mouse, to bypass issues.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2022
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  6. mdrejhon

    mdrejhon Member Guru

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    For such questions it may be best to post on Blur Busters Forums because I do not know what the rules for supporting these monitors on Guru3D at the moment. However, I will answer this one post:

    The XG2431 is Blur Busters Approved 2.0 and has more adjustability — view www.blurbusters.com/xg2431 — that monitor already includes the latest firmware directly from the factory.

    You have to install Viewsonic Elite DIsplay Controller, and let it prompt you for a firmware upgrade. If it was new and latest factory run, it already has the latest firmware. If it is used, then it may need a firmware upgrade. Make sure the USB cable is connected between PC and monitor, for the firmware upgrade.

    You will have to test and compare — G2460PG uses NVIDIA’s flavour of ULMB. On average, you will get a lot more flexibility from a Blur Busters Approved strobe backlight (Any-Hz, plus more precalibrated Hz profiles) and you have access to more modes that look better than ULMB, for similar Hz vs Hz (apples vs apples).

    Just remember you need refresh rate headroom — use 120Hz for the strobe sweet spot.

    The more Hz below max Hz, the better strobe quality you will get on any monitor. You have the choice of the Hz-vs-strobe tradeoff. NVIDIA hardcodes ULMB only to a few refresh rates, not letting you strobe at a lower or higher Hz, like only 100Hz, 120Hz, 144Hz even on a 240Hz panel.

    The strobe range of XG270 is 75Hz to ~241Hz
    The strobe range of XG2431 is 59Hz to ~241Hz
    The XG2431 supports Strobe Utility, while XG270 does not.

    Hope this helps!
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2022
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  7. Robbo9999

    Robbo9999 Ancient Guru

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    No, of course you get significantly more motion blur with OLED vs ULMB, Mark Rejhon showed in his post that this is the case (https://forums.guru3d.com/threads/a...cd-is-in-the-works.443155/page-3#post-6020961 ), & then the relevant bits of his post copy & pasted below - you'd need a 1000Hz OLED to even equal ULMB at it's most tame setting:

    Impulsed / Strobe Backlight:
    1ms ULMB pulse = 3 pixels of forced display motion blur at 3000 pixels/sec
    0.5ms ULMB pulse = 1.5 pixels of forced display motion blur at 3000 pixels/sec
    0.25ms ULMB pulse = 0.75 pixels of forced display motion blur at 3000 pixels/sec

    Sample-and-hold OLED or other "near 0ms GtG" non-strobed display:
    OLED matching 1ms pulse ULMB in map test = 1000fps 1000Hz strobeless
    OLED matching 0.5ms pulse ULMB in map test = 2000fps 2000Hz strobeless
    OLED matching 0.25ms pulse ULMB in map test = 4000fps 4000Hz strobeless
     
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  8. Robbo9999

    Robbo9999 Ancient Guru

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    Hi, thanks, I might well join up at Blur Busters and ask some questions, etc. I've got the XG270 being delivered tomorrow. I wasn't aware I couldn't use the Strobe Utility with the XG270, but still the XG270 seems to offer some very flexible strobe settings. I understand your advice re 120Hz sweetspot strobe on this 240Hz monitor.....and that fits well with my current system as I'll need to beef up the CPU (new platform) to get a significantly higher minimum fps, (I will change up my platform in the next year I think). I also think the XG270 will offer significantly brighter strobing at 120Hz than my current G2460PG, which is the main problem. My only concern re the XG270 is that I've found out subsequently it's a 2019 panel (and IPS which I knew), so it might not be faster than my TN panel in my G2460PG, so I'm wondering how motion blur free it will be without strobing at 240Hz vs the max 180Hz capability of my TN Panel in my G2460PG - that's my only concern that it won't be an upgrade when used without strobing......although I'm quite certain the strobing of the XG270 will be better than the G2460PG. What do you reckon about my last concern there, is it valid?
     
  9. mdrejhon

    mdrejhon Member Guru

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    This used to be true for IPS technology before 2020, but:

    Modern “Fast IPS” manufacturered 2020 and newer has performance very competitive with TN now. The best IPS can ghost less than the worst TN now. For all pratical intents and purposes, Hz differences make a bigger visibility difference than the GtG-vs-GtG differences of yesteryear TN versus newer IPS.

    Be noted that the newly announced 500 Hz panels coming uses an E-TN panel that is reportedly up to 60% faster than both current TN and IPS. But the IPS type used in XG270 and the TN type used in G2460PG, 240Hz FastIPS will look clearer than 144Hz TN.

    The G2460PG is only a 144Hz panel, so you will notice get clearer motion for high frame rates (e.g. >200fps).

    Amazon usually has a great money back guarantee, so assuming your panel is not defective, it should significantly outperform. That being said, the G-SYNC in PG2460PG is official while the XG270 is G-SYNC Compatible. In theory, the only thing I can think of is without seeing your PG2460PG performance, the differential makes for a slightly inferior G-SYNC, but the G-SYNC Compatible tech improved over time, and higher refresh rate, however, compensates significantly, and the RTINGS review of XG270 shows relatively consistent pixel response — little overshoot at all, and relatively little ghosting. 240Hz also eliminates LFC stutter you see on lower-Hz 144Hz G-SYNC monitors (0.5/240sec LFC penalty instead of 0.5/144sec LFC penalty on average), and has much less VRR latency since on 240Hz all VRR refresh cycles are transmitted in only 1/240sec even at low frame rates. It’s also easier to keep framerate ranges inside VRR ranges, making the capping band-aid (3fps below) less necessary than for narrow-VRR-range monitors.

    I’ve seen many G-SYNC Comaptible 240Hz panels (especially FastIPS) outperform G-SYNC native 144Hz panels already, so you should notice an overall upgrade there assuming the used panel isn’t defective or a bad lottery specimen.

    Also helping this is, I also rarely see 240Hz FastIPS underperform 144Hz TN — you really have to cherrypick heavily to find examples. I can’t say anything perfectly definitive, but you do have a very high likelihood of XG270 being superior in the majority of respects — fixed Hz, VRR, strobed, nonstrobed.

    Be noted that Blur Busters Approved certification focuses only on strobe performance, much like FreeSync certification only focuses on AMD VRR performance, and G-SYNC certification only focuses on NVIDIA VRR performance. Hz-for-Hz, PureXP generally outperforms ULMB on the same panel, in terms of lower crosstalk.

    Because of that ApertureGrille review observation and elsewhere, you might be interested in testing 119Hz versus 120Hz, because on some panels, 119Hz PureXP looks even better than 120Hz PureXP because of the unadjustable presets in XG270. (XG2431 has no such discrete sweet spot because all of its Hz is recalibrateable via Strobe Utility). 120Hz PureXP used to look better than 119Hz PureXP, but very slight panel lottery differences can cause this to flip. But in both cases, both refresh rates should look overall better on most panel specimens on average than 120Hz ULMB on the majority of 144Hz panels, despite being IPS vs TN. Hopefully will also be true on that used specimen too.

    For more in-depth discussion about XG270 and XG2431 you best post on Blur Busters Forums, since this veers into technical support considerations.

    However, what I write in this post are also generalities for all 240Hz new FastIPS versus older 144Hz TN, e.g. extra refresh rate overcomes the differences discussed (G-SYNC Compatible vs G-SYNC native, clearer non-VRR frame rates on 240Hz IPS versus 144Hz TN, etc).

    We already know extra refresh rate solves a lot of problems (like G-SYNC latency complaints by esports players) — G-SYNC becomes esports quality when your favourite uncapped esports game can fluctuate framerate completely inside VRR range, never hitting VRR min Hz or VRR max Hz, and lagfeel thus becomes ultra consistent, often better than VSYNC OFF, when we’re in the 500 Hz leagues. That’s why CS:GO pros who hate VSYNC OFF, often buy the 360 Hz G-SYNC, so framerate ranges stay within VRR ranges without the capping band-aid, and I see this being true for 500Hz VRR. The G-SYNC issues pretty much evaporate for esports players when organic uncapped framerates breathes fully inside the VRR ranges, making capping optional (to fix other things like lag-by-100%-GPU-utilization).
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2022
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  10. Robbo9999

    Robbo9999 Ancient Guru

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    Nice, thanks, that puts my mind at ease re my purchase, it probably won't be an ill-judged buy....my intuition told me not to let that deal go! I'll experiment with 119Hz vs 120Hz, thanks for that little snippet. I understand all your other points there, and I'll get into the Blur Busters forums if I want to ask or talk more about the XG270 - seems like a good & interesting community to be part of anyway. Thanks for your help & also for the large wealth of technical background information you've provided with regards to everything associated with motion blur in this thread!
     
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  11. mdrejhon

    mdrejhon Member Guru

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    Correct.

    That being said, I’d probably end up prefering a 2ms MPRT OLED (500fps 500Hz) over 1ms strobe LCD ULMB.

    Although the 2ms MPRT OLED would end up having twice as much as motion blur, it is subtle compared to a brighter and more colorful OLED image.

    The multiplier factor I’d tolerate depends on the whole package deal of image quality attributes.

    However, it shows we have a long way to go in the refresh rate race to retina refresh rates, to zero-out compromises between colors, resolution, brightness, blacks, motion blur, etc.

    Being that said, even a 500 Hz OLED is still far from retina refresh rate, given the motionspeeds that are still eye trackable. Most will not care though, since a 500Hz OLED probably will be preferable over a 1000Hz LCD, much as a 240Hz OLED is preferable by some over a 500Hz LCD.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2022
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  12. Robbo9999

    Robbo9999 Ancient Guru

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    Yes, I appreciate that gaming enjoyment and general enjoyment of monitors is more than just total eradication of motion blur, you can't doubt the appeal of OLED (my parents have an OLED laptop) and there is no doubt that the associated image quality is a major contributor to the experience, which is probably why tunejunky wanted to jump to OLED's general defense earlier....just I wanted to correct him on his motion blur point......I myself am sorely tempted by OLED, but for now this XG270 deal was a no-brainer at this time as a better overall fit to wallet & gaming performance. I certainly can imagine that 500Hz OLED would be a very enjoyable gaming experience when it comes to market!
     
  13. Ufasas

    Ufasas New Member

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    Play with 240 hz for a week and you will see difference, but eyes will get used to, go back to 144hz for a week, and yet again, you will see difference, and eyes will get used to again, i am staying with 240 hz IPS from MSI, cause i don't want to get used to ghosting models of Benq 144hz crap and tragic TN colours. Plus gtx 1070 or 1060 can give you those 240 fps in csgo @ 1080p and you can get even 999 fps with a potato GPU in quake live
     
  14. Robbo9999

    Robbo9999 Ancient Guru

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    Yes, I'm expecting general image quality to be better with this 2020 IPS screen I'm getting vs the 2014 TN Panel I've got currently. I recently got a high-end Ampere card after the shop finally got some in stock after nearly 2yrs after I placed my original order! So I don't have to live with potato settings even at 200fps really.
     
  15. Catspaw

    Catspaw Active Member

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    Moreless it is how I landed also after a lot of time. I started with 240Hz TN, now my 165Hz laptop screen ips is just as fast (testing with human benchmark) while the image quality is far superior.
     

  16. tunejunky

    tunejunky Ancient Guru

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    i will reiterate the fact that strobed displays are not for everyone AND that every brand that sells one is forced by law to have health warnings.
    there are a lot of people who are still unaware that seizures are a serious medical condition, and in the demographic of gamers silent epilepsy has become a large issue and many young people are unaware of it until someone else notices them.

    epilepsy has many causes and only a few epileptics have a family history.
     
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  17. Robbo9999

    Robbo9999 Ancient Guru

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    Quick post, some of you might have seen earlier in this thread that I bought the XG270, I'm impressed with it....I joined BlurBusters & wrote a detailed post describing what I've learned about it & my impressions, post is at following link for those interested:
    https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?p=81569#p81500
     
  18. FlawleZ

    FlawleZ Ancient Guru

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    Actually this isn't entirely correct. Your response prompted me to look further and it's explained here:
    https://www.lifewire.com/what-is-a-sub-field-drive-1847853
     
  19. Astyanax

    Astyanax Ancient Guru

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    What it is, and what its stated at are not the same.

    the sub regionsupdate at 60hz, so its a 60hz display, with all the frame latency that 60hz implies.

    a connected PC or console does not output 600hz, it outputs 60hz.
     

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