6600GT has too much shimmering!

You NOTICED it only with GTA SA is more likely, considering it has streets. Streets tend to look that way without filtering (and here anisotropic filtering makes it look worse than trilinear).

I notice it with Guild Wars, too. ... It is possible, I suppose, that these games could be programmed to accept defaults that other games override, because I did not at all have this problem with my old card. I'll state it and state it again. Here, look; the angles aren't exactly the same but pretty close.

NOTES: Not that it's important, but the Ti4200 images were taken less than a week before I got my new card to explain to someone the difference between AF and no AF. At the time, little attention was paid in terms of angle. However, with the 6600GT I tried my best to imitate the angle used with the Ti4200 8x Quality image.

[GTA:SA] Ti4200 Forced 8x Anisotropic Filtering (Quality)
^ You can't deny this is by far better than all the others I've listed and anything the 6600GT puts out, sadly.

[GTA:SA] Ti4200 Mipmapping Off, AF Forced Off (Quality)

[GTA:SA] 6600GT Forced 16x Anisotropic Filtering (High Quality)

[GTA:SA] 6600GT Forced 8x Anisotropic Filtering (Quality)

[GTA:SA] 6600GT Forced Trilinear Filtering, AF Forced Off (High Quality)

The best part about the Ti4200 was that it didn't "shimmer" with AF. Unfortunately I didn't take any Camtasia videos with that card, but I have no reason to lie.

In case you haven't noticed, I'm a tad obsessive, and these problems bother me, especially considering for me the 6600GT (agp) wasn't cheap.

 

Hmm... I get this issue too.... But more at low res. So I started gamin on high res and it seems less. SO I guess its a problem but ATM I see no way of fixin. So Im off to more HALF Life 2... What Im basically sayin dont look for problems cuz U will find even more.

 

Eh. Yeah. But this is noticeable to me, even if I'm not looking for it. I notice that shimmering, especially in Guild Wars, and I didn't pay to "upgrade" to the shimmering. 1280x1024 is the max my 17" lcd can output anyway. I'm used to playing games at low resolutions like 640x480 with my old Ti4200 and enabling anisotropic filtering and having it look smooth yet clear... (Though to be clear I would sometimes switch to 1280x1024 just to see how it would look if my card would handle it, hence the 1280x1024 screenshot of my Ti4200 at 8x AF, and it still looked smooth and clear and unshimmering--hint, the end of the road, compare it.) With my old card, it was like an antialiasing for textures in a way, and enabling antialiasing doesn't solve the problem with my new one. "Multisampling" if that's what you call it (choosing 2x2 or 4x4 in RivaTuner) is the closest I can get. It's just... not ... fair.

 

I just couldn't recreate the problem I put GTA SA mip mapping on and image settings on high quality and made sure anistropic optimizations in the control panel were off and also trilinear optimization and got no shimmering?

 

Yes. I't's more perceivable at 1024 or above. I play at 1024. When I reported this problem in Brazilian forums, I noticed people that play at high resolutions don't complain as much.

Painkiller doen't have this problem, AF looks excellent, even playing in Quality mode stead of Ultra Quality.

Quality mode is 20% faster then Ultra Quality in some games, but normally It has too Moire and shimmering (HL2 and CCS are the worst). No way both mode have the same image quality.

CSS in Quality mode is terrible:

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/8868/hl220050710195525503ub.jpg
http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/7322/hl220050710195542351fr.jpg
http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/5891/hl220050710195552153sd.jpg
http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/4596/hl220050710195823421hl.jpg
http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/2308/hl220050710195849091ji.jpg

 

I guess there is also a relation with shimmering, AF and pixel shader...I'm not sure....I'm playing a new map in Painkiller now (It's an army airport). Fisrt thing I realised in this map is It has much more light effect on the ground textures. Seems the others maps don't have pixel shader comparing to this one. This map I can see kind of a line (I havent noticed this until this map) thats folow me wanking. This line produces a strange "shimmering" on textures. The same thing happens in HL2 and CSS if I play at Quality. Ultra Quality eliminates this bizarro line (I havent tested in PK yet), but shimmering and moire persist although they are less prominent.

 

(NOTE: Most of this is a rant, so scroll to the bottom of the post for an image comparison.)

I'm starting to think/hope it's an issue that varies between cards and might be fixable via a BIOS upgrade or modification. Wouldn't that be neat? I think everyone with and without the issue should make the brand of their video card be known (most people have, some haven't). I'm using AGP8x if that makes a difference in some twisted way.

Another thing--the shimmering is also noticeable in the Filtering & AA Tool of 3dmark(05). That might be the way it is for all cards, but I must say, you can't blame this anisotropic filtering problem with some of our cards on the game exactly, as some of us know from experience that older cards do not have the problem with the games you mention (GTA SA, for example). So while it may be a programming difference in some other newer games that eliminates the problem (if it truly is eliminated), or if it has to do with forced anisotropic filtering, many of us having used older cards can say it made no difference and the filtering looked smooth with any game, including Guild Wars and GTA SA. As for the Filtering & AA Tool--I don't think I ever used it on my old card.

Using a 1.5 LOD bias is about as close as I can come to the smoothness without completely giving up sharpness, though the lack of sharpness is still fairly noticeable with that.

UPDATE: Oops. Turns out the 1.5 LOD bias made the Filtering & AA Tool look smooth like with old anisotropic filtering forms, but it makes everything else look just... err... low-res-texturish. I'm really wishing we could get ahold of nVidia about this carp (I'm a vegetarian anyway).

Looks better with High Quality, sorry about anything I've said before. It seems (at least) with the drivers I'm using, game-specific options for Image Quality don't work. I have to use the Global Driver Settings for that, since that's all the driver cares about (I'm using 71.89). Definitely looks better (though not as good as Ti4200) on High Quality. I'll have to retake that GTA: SA high quality screenshot, since it wasn't really on, apparently.

Trilinear filtering, also, produces minimal shimmering and aliasing compared to anisotropic, which is SUPPOSED to eliminate it (grr grr grr). As you can see in the image comparison below, trilinear filtering on the 6600gt looks similar to 8x AF on the Ti4200. However, as I mentioned, trilinear filtering produces "minimal shimmering." It still produces shimmering. To be clear what I mean about shimmering, it's where a patch of a texture seems to sparkle as you move closer or away from it due to pixelation. It also signifies, from my interpretation, "lines" that seem to show up from aliasing.

It's important to note that many options, for me, do NOT work if specified on a per application basis, even if the nVidia Control Panel or RivaTuner allow them to be. In order to activate trilinear filtering in GTA SA, for example, I forced off anisotropic filtering (just in case) and forced on trilinear mipmapping, all in the Global Driver Settings, since none of it had an effect in the application profile.

Here's a better comparison of the quality of each card and mode; I tried my very best to get the same angles. For all you nitpickers, because I chose the Low quality in-game setting with the Ti4200, I chose it for the 6600GT as well for the benefit of the comparison (choosing Very High in-game does not improve texture appearance). From the left, the first clip is High Quality 16x Anisotropic Filtering forced via the driver via Global Driver Settings of the nVidia Control Panel. The second clip is High Quality trilinear mipmapping forced via the driver via Global Driver Settings of the nVidia Control Panel. The third clip is Quality 8x Anisotropic Filtering forced via the driver via an application profile on my Ti4200 (AF and AA seem to be forceable, but not IQ or mipmapping or any of that).



[GTA:SA] 6600GT Forced 16x Anisotropic Filtering (High Quality) - first from left, full

[GTA:SA] 6600GT Forced Trilinear Filtering, AF Forced Off (High Quality) - second from left, full

[GTA:SA] Ti4200 Forced 8x Anisotropic Filtering (Quality) - third from left, full

 

I get the same moire patterns also with my setup.

 

Just switched to them to see if they would solve it. Nope. No difference. (I've tried many. I haven't kept track of all I've tried, but they're all in my download folder so I can tell that way.)

First, the OBVIOUS question. Did you turn anisotropic filtering itself on?

AJ²06 mentioned high res reducing the effect. I'm not sure what he means by high res (I usually consider high res 1280x1024+), but what res do you run it in, flexmaster? I run it in 1280x1024 (max my monitor supports).

I would like to see images of the area I took my screenshots at on your card to confirm that our definitions of shimmering and aliased match (if that's possible). Note the place I get the "shimmering" in my images. Around that area (outside the first safe house), the streets seem to be textured with very aliased street textures (many of the other street textures in the game actually do benefit from anisotropic filtering and don't have such aliasing or shimmering). I concede that most games probably don't use textures that are so aliased or aliasable, but the fact remains that my Ti4200 could handle it, and perhaps flexmaster, your card can too (to my envy). Although shimmering cannot be conveyed in a screenshot, aliasing can usually be a cause, and that's evident in one.

 

Again, this is sort of a double post, but I've found out something meaningful

A lot of problems with a lot of programs (and drivers *ahem*) can get all intertwined and make things confusing. Anyway, truth be told, there are only two games I have installed or play at the moment: Guild Wars and GTA: SA.

Let me get straight to the point. With GTA: SA, if you don't load the game (as in load a saved game or start a new one) with the in-game quality setting at Very High, at least for me the texture quality is doomed and will be aliased. Even if you change it in-game, it will still be aliased. The game must be loaded with Very High. After that, switching to Low will retain the not-aliased-looking textures.

It appears GTA: SA, as many games seem to these days, enables anisotropic filtering on its own, so don't touch it in the control panel. In fact, if you have the problem I do, definitely only mess with it on a per-game basis, but in any case, do NOT force anisotropic filtering for GTA: SA, as this will force the texture aliasing. Don't even force it off--this will too. I think I may have said I forced anisotropic filtering off before, but I must not have.

So two basic things:
1. Load San Andreas with the quality at Very High.
2. Do NOT force anisotropic filtering. It will be used automatically.

Then everything should be basically smooth-like (at least compared to how it was before if you were having my same problem). Shimmering? Limited as far as textures go, but this won't solve any shimmering involving models or far-off lines or anything like that. For THAT you use antialiasing (supersampling will work the best).

Other than that, the reason I considered the problem to be hardware- or driver-related was because Guild Wars had (has) some shimmering stuff too, but it's not nearly as bad as GTA: SA was anyway, and my sister's ATI 9600 Pro produces the same "shimmering." So it's basically unavoidable and hardly noticeable anyway (I don't mean the pre-process effects, though, just so you know).

The result of 3dmark05's Filtering Test didn't help me in terms of coming to the correct conclusion, but I never used it on the Ti4200 anyway, and you can hardly avoid shimmering with that anyway just because.

The driver didn't help at all either! Things such as selecting Image Quality on a per-app basis NOT WORKING led to confusion.

The fact that I never had the problem with my Ti4200 was another odd thing. I still don't quite know why that is, but I reckon it's the way the driver handles the card differently or incorrectly, or the way the hardware's defaults are a little different and the driver doesn't compensate for that, or something. Somebody should tell nVidia about some of this.

Anyway, the AF quality definitely isn't as bad as I considered it to be from what I saw in GTA: SA (I thought I'd see that in Guild Wars or any other game if I came to the right texture), and I pretty much consider my problem solved. Sorry for the fuss on my part. Thanks for the help, people.

 

http://img351.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gtasa20050720152253296ef.png

Here you go my screenshots of the game, no shimmering, anistropic filtering is on. I had to make it smaller the file was 3.75 mb big so I had to cut some parts out.
I can email you the large one if you want to see it.

 

You know, that still does look a heck of a lot better than what I've compromised with. I can't say I've done anything wrong though to cause anisotropic filtering to make things messed up when I enable it for GTA: SA. There haven't been any updates or patches, have there? I haven't applied any...

I think maybe the drivers are just glitchy... or wait, you have a 6600GT too. And from your motherboard it must also be AGP. Err. Err.

I "repaired" my Windows installation, by the way. It solved a different, unrelated problem I was having but not this one. Should it even matter since I used DriverCleaner and everything every time? I have the latest beta driver collection for my motherboard (only upgraded to it in hopes of solving this problem, e.g. I had it with the 5.10 nForce drivers too).

I can't think of why yours would look so much better. Wait, in a second I'll make a real comparison of how mine looks now to that.

OK.

http://usera.imagecave.com/tomilius/looking-better.PNG

That's assumedly with at least 8x anisotropic filtering automatically applied since it's noticeable on certain streets when AF is off (you know, it gets all blurryish). Still, there's SOME shimmering. It's just not nearly as bad. I have 4x AA applied since your image appeared to also, but there was still some shimmering in-game. Anyway, are you using supersampling? That by nature would eliminate some of any possible shimmering.

I'm wondering, do you get any patterns like this? (the double yellow line on the street and the fence). I wouldn't think those would be eliminated with AF but since yours is fully functional I'm curious.

 

K this is what I did,
I left it on high quality in the nvidia control panel made sure triliniear optimization, anistropic mip filter opt. etc. were off, then in the game I had image quality on very high and mip mapping on, no af was enabled in the control panel since it dosen't do anything when it is enabled in the game allready and in game i had aa on 3, then I took the screeny. No I don't get that double line with these settings and i am not using supersamplin just in game aa, so there you go try it.

 

Well thanks but it's not like I haven't tried that or been doing that. I've installed new drivers enough times, you'd think eventually it would just get nearly like that.

I've always had all optimizations off (until recently when I didn't notice much of a reduction in quality with them on in terms of that aliasing since it's pretty much always there). Image Quality always for these tests have been High Quality, again until recently since the improvement isn't enough to matter or have much of an effect on the aliasing. As for the game settings, that's how mine is. And my screen was at 3 AA in-game.

My settings were exactly as yours for the screenshot and the test. And there's some shimmering/aliasing. Go figure.

Another difference, of course, is that with AF on it doesn't "not do anything"--it's another contributor to aliasing/shimmering.

I think I'll take another video of it with my settings. ... but first I think I'll reinstall Windows fully (considering it).

 

Did you change anything on your system other than the graphics card to a 6600gt?

 

Uh, no. I did some shifting around of some PCI cards so that the fan wouldn't be blowing right into a wall... That should have no bearing on this anyway. It's not like the hardware doesn't work. I'd like to think I'm not that much of a newbie, but thanks for trying to help there.

To summarize the problem (again), forcing anisotropic filtering via the driver somehow makes for lower image quality at least in GTA: SA in terms of texture aliasing. It didn't with my Ti4200.

I just deleted, recreated, and formatted C and reinstalled Windows by the way (I have plenty of partitions, don't worry, hehe)--Windows XP Professional SP2 just to make that known (not sure if my sig says it but I'll know after I post this). I installed nothing but the basics--drivers, Firefox, Thunderbird, Daemon Tools, Fastmount, 7-zip, Peerguardian... none of which could possibly be related to my obscure problem (that others seem to have as well). I still have it when I force anisotropic filtering (you said there was no change when you did this which is immensely disappointing in terms of determining this problem's origins). Also, of course, I still have some shimmering, and that was without messing with anything. It's the same not-as-bad-as-"original" shimmering, though; it's much less severe than that shown in earlier screenshots and the video.

I still think the driver has problems with certain cards or implementations (maybe somehow our cards were made a little differently). How else would some have the problem and some not? From the feedback here in this thread, I'm not the only one.

Could you, flexmaster, possibly try focusing, for purposes of our ongoing test here, ONLY on the street right outside of the first safe house in the game to look for shimmering/aliasing (you know, the one you've been using)? In other words, keep using that and only base your observations on that unless you otherwise state what you're observing--that is, if you'll continue to help me and others try to figure this out (thanks for your help so far and thanks to everyone else who has contributed). So, when you say "there's no shimmering," don't look for an overall representation; look on that specific circular area, and possibly the darker road that begins near the entrance to it for shimmering.

When you look, please try at different resolutions, even as low as 640x480 (go down and down if you consistently don't notice what I'm talking about, all the way to 640x480 if you'd please, since if you really don't have the issue you shouldn't see it on any res and if you see it on a low res it's most-likely a monitor imperfection, ironically, that you didn't see it on a higher one). Some others have said its more noticeable at lower resolutions. Well, if you don't have an LCD things probably aren't as crisp for you anyway so I'd recommend using a lower one. The shimmering is similar to z-buffer problems that you see in some games in a way; it's that sort of flashing but it's more in lines or stripes. You have to look at it in motion. That's very important. As you move around, you'll see spots of the texture "jump out" at you as though the texture itself is changing a little bit. Now, low resolution shouldn't be any excuse for THIS sort of texture shimmering. You'll see other shimmering for sure (make sure you have all forms of AA off), but focus on this texture, this flat street texture's shimmering/aliasing only. For me, areas on this texture around the darker, black splotches usually flicker most noticeably. Look for patterns that seem to display themselves as you walk around, looking at the texture from different angles. Sorry if this whole paragraph, if you can call it that seems like an explanation to a newbie, but I just want to make sure we're clear on what the issue is here. Maybe some of us are more sensitive (picky) to it than others, and I just want to eliminate that possibility.

Please, in case I didn't mention it, be sure to try forcing anisotropic filtering as well when trying some of this, since that's what makes for the largest aliasing for me.

I'll thank you (or anyone else) in advance for trying this. Don't mistake the "lines" that appear from a lack of vertical syncing with shimmering as another caution. Don't worry about being that organized, I'd just like to know if you have this problem and when you noticed it or if you decidedly, surely and fully don't.

 

K I'll try some stuff I'll post it soon.

 

Hi,
In HL2 and CSS (maybe others too) i noticed a grain effect on textures (other than shimmering), which isn't in the Ti4200, i use ultra high settings and still this effect is REALLY annoying, it seems the new generations r just lousy optimizations to old gen. cards, this is theft

originally posted by tomilius

 

K I have discovered the problem, apperently af should not be used with GTA SA according to Rockstar instead it should be enabled in game by setting mippmaping on.
Here are my screenies comparing the game

Here its at 1280/1024 with forced 16 af in control panel
http://img301.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gtasa20050721003957453gv.png

Here it is 800/600 with forced 16 af in control panel
http://img320.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gtasa20050721004024826qp.png

here it is with ingame af by enabling mipmapping to on 1280/1024
http://img318.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gtasa20050721004234176rb.png

here the same thing with 800/600
http://img318.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gtasa20050721004212951oo.png

*Again there is no shimmering in this mode even when I moved around and tried in different places I had no shimmering or it was not noticable to my eyes I guess.

Lastly I enabled force Trilinear mippmaping in the control panel with the af set ingame.

This is it at 1280/1024
http://img339.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gtasa20050721004938219ec.png

and 800/600
http://img339.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gtasa20050721005001250eg.png

*This had no difference between the no Trillinear version, so I have concluded this from my reasearch I'm almost 100% certain of this.

When you enable af in the game the game changes the af to a Trilinear af mippmapingis enabled in the control panel through 16 af Nvidia starts using Brilinear filtration yes its a mix. ATI cards and previous generation Nvidia cards used to use only Trilinear filtration, Nvidia uses now Brilinear to improve performance. I tried this theory in other games and if you force Trilinear mippmaping in the control panel then ahimmering dissapears completelly, I tested and compared to my mobility 9600 laptop and found no differerences when it was forced on.
Any other questions?

 

i had shimmering with my fx5900 xt on CSS and HL2 along with GTA SA