460 SLi or just a 480?

Discussion in 'Videocards - NVIDIA GeForce' started by BeLGaRaTh_67, Aug 11, 2010.

  1. kitch9

    kitch9 Ancient Guru

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    The only game I've really got an issue with at the mo with SLI is Episodes of Liberty City.

    Shadows flicker like crazy, and it drives me nuts so I use a single card. No issues with any other game I've found yet.
     
  2. redoak

    redoak Active Member

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    I plan on adding a second GTX460 next week so we'll see how it goes. I went the SLI route figuring that 2 GPU's gives me more flexibility, i.e. Physx. Even if I have to disable SLI for a specific game, my single 460 has been handling everything I play currently just fine. If microstutter is a showstopper, I'll just sell them off and buy a 480.
     
  3. Marlec

    Marlec Member Guru

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    I wont tell you wat you should do but i can tell you my experience with 2 GTX 460`s. Firstly SLI come`s with many headaches, the worst i had was having to wait 3 months for a working profile for Dirt2 :bang:

    When i had the 2 cards about 10 days ago i tried many games, mostly i got no extra FPS and when i did the minimums were the same as 1 GTX 480. I was so unhappy with them i took them back to the shop and got a GTX480 instead so far its been great, its such a lot less hassle.

    Notice that in these reviews flying around the net of 460`s in SLI there all using absolute beasts for CPU`s with massive OC`s which is needed to get the most out of SLI but i am not paying close to a 1000 bucks for a CPU

    Dont listen to all the stupid stories about heat & noise with a GTX480, with the newer BIOS`s it`s not bad at all. I will say thou it does use just a tad too much juice for my liking but thats about it really. GTX 480 is a hassle free card that`s getting cheaper, i paid 400 euro`s for mine.
     
  4. adonay

    adonay Member

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    Sorry but in our case thats pure BS. My friend has a 920 i7 clocked at 3,5ghz i have the same, He has a Gigabyte GA-X58A-UD5, i have a Gigabyte GA-X58A-UD3R,. He bought a 480 i bought two GTX 460 cards . Let me tell you i embarrass hes card in every benchmark except for Just cause 2 "concrete jungle" "the other two my sli setup wins". I think we have benchmarked 20 games and only 2 titles prefered his 480 card. Keep in mind that my cards are 768mb and that 480 beast is like 1500mb. even at high aa the sli setup rules .

    I have to laugh though as you think a 5ghz cpu will Mather much more in games. It wont ok maybe 2-5fps at max unless you run at 1024x768 :pc1:
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2010

  5. Marlec

    Marlec Member Guru

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    Wat are you on about ?? wats BS about the trouble i had with SLI ? where did i say you need 5GHZ for games ?? all i know for a fact is i had 2 cards that for some reason or other wouldnt work proper in my rig whilst 1 would work as it should. If you got it to work then good for you. You havent told me anything i didnt already know.
     
  6. Sneakers

    Sneakers Ancient Guru

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    So in conclusion:

    460/465 SLI pros:

    - SLI 460/465s OCed to 830-850 core / 1700 memory alot faster then a single 480
    - Nvidia 3D thingie
    - less heat compared to a 480 if your not OCing
    - many diffrent custom fan design models to choose from MSI frozr II and Gigabyte models seems to be really really nice and still around 220 euro mark even for a 465.


    460/465 SLI cons:

    - SLI scaling and issues with new games not supporting SLI ( one example is SC2, Dirt2 )
    - The inherent quirks and bugs that naturally comes along when running multiple GPUs ( takes more of the end user not a plug n play setup )



    480 SLI pros:

    - Worlds fastest single GPU
    - No SLI issues
    - Can be heavily OCed with a 3rd party fan solution from say Accelero, or on h20.
    - Plug n play no inherent SLI issues no headaches

    480 SLI cons:

    - Runs hot
    - loud fan
    - no way you can OC on a reference board and run it 24/7
    - no nvidia 3d thingie
    - still somewhat expensive ( though as some1 above posted you can if you look around find one at around 400 euros wich is somewhat decent )

    I really don't know what I will go for myself, all I know is that I have to go with a quite powerful card to justify the hassel and price of changing gpus, 4870x2 is still one of the fastest cards.
     
  7. CoreyPL

    CoreyPL Master Guru

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    That's what I said - GTX465=GF100, GTX460=GF104... So read the reviews - in every game tested by Guru3D GTX460 is equal or faster than GTX465.

    You can't compare clocks on a different chipsets. GT104 is still a little different construction comparing to GF100, even tho they have many similarities. GF104 is more efficient in design. It's similar to HD4870 and HD4890 - second one had improved design which enabled it to achieve better clocks with stability.

    Yes, GTX465 will be faster at the same clocks, but will also eat up way more power, thus will be even hotter than now. Limit of OC for GTX465 is way lower than GTX460. I've seen people with over 900MHz on their GTX460 using customized air cooling (this specific model was from Gigabyte if I recall). My Gigabyte on 820/1640/2050 heats up to 67C with ambient around 26C.

    Yes, depends on cooler. But still if GTX465 emits 40W more heat is is only natural that cooler will have to either disperse that heat more efficiently (higher RPM) or leave the card with higher temps in general maintaining reasonable RPM. And when OC'ing GTX465 will require even more power than OC'ed GTX460, because GF100 is just a inefficient power hog.
    I had two GTX460 in my PC - Palit was noisy when OC'ed even with BIOS update with new fan profiles. Gigabyte is silent and cold.

    Where do you get this? Do the math - GTX460 has TDP 160W (1GB version) and GTX465 has 200W TDP. GTX480 has 250W TDP.

    So:
    GTX460 SLI: 320W TDP
    GTX465 SLI: 400W TDP
    GTX480 single: 250W TDP

    So both GTX460 and GTX465 in SLI will draw more power than single GTX480.
    Heat problems with GTX480 comes from that TDP - one cooling solution has to deal with 250W of heat, when in SLI you have two cooling solutions that disperse heat quicker.
     
  8. Shagula

    Shagula Master Guru

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    I would say the power difference between a 460 SLI setup compared to a GTX480 seems negligible...

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    http://guru3d.com/article/geforce-gtx-460-sli-review/15

    Considering even the non overclocked 768meg models run a decent bit faster than a 480... The only game i've ever had SLI problems with is GTA4 and that will run fine in 1920x1200 with a single 460 (Maybe 1gig) anyway.

    According to everywhere a 460 SLI setup will run cooler than a 480 also. But i guess only if you have sufficient cooling for your case, i guess if you were considering SLI or a 480 you'd be crazy not to have good cooling anyway.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    http://guru3d.com/article/geforce-gtx-460-sli-review/17
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2010
  9. spiffyskater

    spiffyskater Member Guru

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    This is the same argument that was had about the gtx280 vs the 260 when they came out back in 2008. The 260 was about half the price of a 280 and only 18% or so less powerful. Today, with the 480 and 460, at least the 480 is almost twice as powerful as a single 460. The 480 is one single powerful card. Yes two 460s are going to out perform one 480 but not by that much,.. Especially when compared to a 280 vs two 260s.

    The reason why I went with the 480 over the 460s is because when games get to the point where one 480 isn’t enough, I can buy another and double the power and be set. When games get to that point, two 460s will BARLEY be powerful enough and you will be facing another upgrade, rendering those two 460s useless.

    When that day comes, the price of 480s will probably have dropped to the $200 price range making a 480 sli setup cost “around” $700 in the end. vs what ever the next generation super card is cost and performance wise. I highly doubt that the next flagship single gpu card will be more powerful than two 480s. Also it seems to be cheaper then spending 400$ now on two 460s and then another $500 for the next gpu upgrade two years from now. (IMHO)
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2010
  10. adonay

    adonay Member

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    Sorry that you feel i somehow attacked you there did not mean it like that. I said in OUR case as for me and my buddy the SLI setup wins hands down almost always. We had no sli issues on the i7 platform. The 5ghz part well you clearly did not say that but you did say more or less that you need a 1000Eur CPU to get proper SLI scaling something i pointed out somewhat weirdly with a 5ghz example. I wish i had a i780 board to test with but my q6600 rig uses a intel chipset so cant confirm that the SLI setup will be slower on the 775 platform although i somehow doubt that it will at a moderate overclock like yours. I am glad you are happy with the 480 so you should its a beast of a GPU. But as stated i wish to share our experience with the two setups using a entry level i7 300EUR CPU. Anyways i apologize if what i wrote seemed somewhat unclear.
     

  11. Shagula

    Shagula Master Guru

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    The thing that makes the 460s more interesting in the 2x460s v 480 situation is that SLI scales so much better now on Fermi cards than it did for the 200 series. Its also helpfull that the 460 cards seem to overclock incredibly well and get very good performance gains from the increased clocks. Everything you say makes sense, fair enough but ah, the outperforming by not much?

    "The GeForce GTX 460 SLI configuration absolutely obliterates the GeForce GTX 480’s performance scores, landing a 26% performance coup de grace upon its big brother after continuously battering it with wins in every benchmark at every setting. "

    http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/geforce-gtx-460-sli-geforce-gtx-480,2694.html

    Thats not exactly a little win. Dont get me wrong, if i didnt care about power usage or temps and i wanted full throttle performance, i'd go for 480s in SLI as 480s in SLI are the fastest solution around. But after living with 3 x 285s in SLI on a 1250watt PSU ill personally never go back to a huge power hungry system.
     
  12. ShadowMyth

    ShadowMyth Ancient Guru

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    I always prefer a single card solution, I don't care for the potential hassles of SLI. Also with a single card solution you can always add another card down the road to increase performance & use one of you current cards a Physx card. Though selling two GTX 460s may be easier due to their low price if you decide you want to sell them once the next iteration or next generation of GPU comes out. I really don't think you could go wrong either way. For me it would come down to what my plans are for the future.
     
  13. Sneakers

    Sneakers Ancient Guru

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    Great so we obviously both know they are not exactely the same chip.

    What they done to the 460 compared to the 465 is snipped CC's/SP's ( w/e you wanna call them ) and made the chip more power efficient. They tried to compensate this by raising clocks abit.

    460 is not faster then 465, all tests have shown this, the diffrence isn't massive but the 465 is faster due to having more SP's, and therfore benefiting more from pure clock speed over those SP's.

    465 is hotter but not by that much, the 460 is a good alternative to the 465 but it is nowhere near beeing faster in any title when on the same clocks, and the 465 can keep up with the 460 clockwise from the tests I seen here on guru3d, anand, tech and xbitlabs.

    Now sure go ahead and argue that it isn't compareable on the same clocks all you want, that doesn't stop the 465 to go to speeds around 850 while maintaining decent temps. Tests have pointed to both the 460 and 465 reaching near 90 degrees when voltmodded and put to near or at 850 core so you fantasy 900 c OC on anything then highend water is just you trying to "win" some argument with no points.

    /edit

    Looked at reviews again and saw the cyclone 460 going to around 885 stable but not higher then that this was voltmodded.

    The 465 went to around 850, stable and voltmodded.

    Didn't find a clear bench where you could see both cards OCed to the limit except here on G3D and in that case it was MW2, and the 465 topped the 460 with 1 fps, 885c vs 850 c. The 465 is faster even when the 460 is on quite higher clocks.

    Sigh, yes it is simular to the 4870 and 4890 wich you did and still can compare clockwise. There is no reason to get a 4890 if your not gonna go well above the limits of 4870 OC capabilities wich you CANNOT DO on the 460 without h20, dice etc.

    The 4870 could stretch to 900 on core where the 4890 could do 1200 in some cases on custom aircooler such as vapor x models n the like.

    A 460 going 900 on core and 1800 on shaders is pure fantasy for that chip on a gigabyte/msi custom air cooler for 24/7 usage in games, especially when you look at the reviews made and how hot they get at 830-850 already.



    Correct, the 465 is faster at the same clocks, hence thats why I would prefer 2 of those in SLI compared to 2 460 in SLI.

    The TDP of 40W more doesn't translate into ( 160/200 = 0.2 = 20% ) 20% higher temperatures wich you seem to argue. It just doesn't, we are talking a few degrees here vs a few fps.

    Look at the Anand, tech, and Guru3d OC tests of the two cards and you will see how rediculous a 900 core 1800 shader OC on any aircooler with voltmod would be while not running 100% fan ( wich isn't viable for any normal person for 24/7 usage ). Not to mention during SLI wich is what the thread is about.

    On water sure, but that kills the whole argument of going with a 460/465 to begin with since then you would get a 480 and put that on water and OC that to its fullest potential instead of wasting money on h2o for a SLI system.

    Looking at reasonable and achieveable 24/7 clocks for both the 460 and 465 you land at around 830-850 on core and both cards do this and the 465 is faster at the same clocks, end of discussion basically.



    465 emmits more heat but that doesn't translate into 20% higher in temperature as you seem to think.

    I think most people either have rpm on auto or fix it to the highest rpm they can stand, that won't change with temperature, so again a no point.

    Have a look at this tweaktown.com review of the Msi frozr II, it is not a perfect test since he put the fan on 100% when OCed but the temp is impressive and it is "supposed" to be silent at 100%. The MSI version is only 15 euro more expensive then the Gigabyte one aswell, so it is still viable to buy.

    -"What's amazing, though, is at 100% the card still comes in under 70dB which isn't too bad. We could probably even drop the fan speed back a few % to help drop those noise levels, as the core is well and truly cool enough." Tweaktown.com

    /edit

    Here is a temp test with the 460 GTX 1G Cyclone ( same as here on Guru3d ).

    Again it is from tweaktown to get consistency and easy comparision since any error in the test enviroment would probably be linear over all tests made ( hopefully :) )

    Here is temp! and here is the decibel that will indicate the results ain't from a fixed setting.

    To not confuse you too much here, look at the highlighted in purple readings off the stock clocked @ 725 cyclone with auto profile and then look at the none OCed 725 clock MSI frozr II readins when it is on auto aswell ( you will know since it will have 2 decibel bars one idle one load ). Temps are not far apart at all and the cyclone got really good reviews and was said to be the best fan for the card. Since there is no MSI frozr II for the 460 only the 465 that is the best comparision.

    What is your point?

    You start the phrase by not agreeing then your own conclusion is in agreement with my statement.


    2x lower tdp cards > 1 higher tdp cards when it comes to each cards individual thermal profile. The 480 will always have higher temps no matter what, wich limits its OC capabilities alot, thats a negative.

    I think that your only arguing to justify your own purchase, you have or had doubts and your trying to rid them by trying to convince me of some all applying truth when there is none to be had to begin with.

    You obviously prefer to have a few degrees lower temp and loose a few fps, thats fine with me. I on the other hand would rather have a few fps more and a few degrees higher in temp.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2010
  14. CoreyPL

    CoreyPL Master Guru

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    460 and 465 are based on different chipsets - period.

    465 is snipped 470, 470 is snipped 480, 480 is snipped 485 (or w/e they will call it - with 512SP). All based on GF100, that's why even snipped versions have high TDP.

    460 is based on GF104 - upgraded GF100, you can call it GF100 rev.2, but it's more than GF100 with cut off parts.

    GF106, on which GTS450 will be based, will also be redesigned chipset.

    Differences between GF100 and GF104 are on much more deeper level than just snipping SPs. That's why those chipsets can't be comparable clock vs clock - they will behave differently because architecture differences.
    Some reading about differences in GF100 and GF104, other than lower SPs:
    http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=954

    Closest review I can get is the one made by Guru3D:
    http://www.guru3d.com/article/geforce-gtx-460-review/

    7 games were tested, along with 3D Mark Vantage. In every one of them stock clocked GTX460 1GB was equal to or faster than stock clocked GTX465. In some tests even GTX460 768MB was faster than GTX465. This is because of the architectural differences between GF100 and GF104.

    So I wasn't making that up - my previous responses that GTX460 is equal/faster than GTX465 were based on the reviews.

    Yes, I can say that it isn't comparable at the same clocks because of architectural differences between the chips other than just SP snipping.
    It is only natural when manufacturer raises the standard clock for the chipset that is designed better - TDP is acceptable, cooling solution will manage it nicely, it doesn't require high V on core etc. Agree, that higher clock in GTX460 comparing to GTX465 (675MHz vs 607MHz) will compensate the loss of whole GPC cluster (2 in GTX460, 3 in GTX465 and 4 in GTX470/480), but redesigned SM unit is compensating this very well too.

    As for OC ability - 900MHz on air is not a fantasy, but a reality :) You wanted points? Here you go - again, from Guru3D review:
    EVGA clocked to 880MHz without voltage tweak, temp 67C: http://www.guru3d.com/article/geforce-gtx-460-review/28
    Gigabyte clocked to 861MHz without voltage tweak, temp 65C: http://www.guru3d.com/article/geforce-gtx-460-review/29
    MSI clocked to 927MHz with voltage tweak, temp 65C: http://www.guru3d.com/article/geforce-gtx-460-review/24

    EVGA and MSI were noisy with OC, but Gigabyte stayed silent. On Polish forum I frequent, users had done 900+ MHz on Gigabyte with voltage tweaking, still maintaining decent noise level.

    So here you have - no fantasy, no making things up. You wanted points, you have them. Now show me GTX465 that have temps around 70-75C at clock 800-850MHz and where fans are not on 100% (jet mode).

    To clarify - in that comparison 4870 is GTX465 (older chip) and 4890 is GTX460 (newer chip). So due to improvements 4890 could be clocked around ~1GHz on air, while 4870 can only dream about it.
    1200MHz on core in 4890 using air cooling? Are you sure? Newer seen that high OC in any review or user report. And I've read plenty of them because I've owned HD4890 myself. Can you point me to the source? I'm very interested what setting this person used to achieve that high OC and how high benchmarks went up comparing to stock.

    No it's not a fantasy, as I've pointed up earlier. Even my Gigabyte with 820MHz OC (didn't try more) hit only 67C with ambient of 26C (Guru3D is testing at 21C as I recall), with fans being totally silent at 47% (auto fan). This chipset is much more stable and cooler with high clocks, so it could be clocked higher than GTX465. 900MHz is pretty doable if you got your chip from a good batch.

    Being two different chipsets, you compare performance of the cards at stock clocks. And GTX460 at stock is faster or equal depending on game than GTX465 on stock. I agree that GTX465 can be faster than GTX460 when OC'ed on max stable clock when the clocks are the same - but this highly depends on the chip you got - if you've been lucky, you can get GTX460 which would clock much higher than GTX465, thus being faster.

    Don't put words in my mouth that I haven't said. I never said anything about 20%.
    I would also like to point out, that your math is wrong. If I would talk about % like you, I would say that:
    200W is 25% higher than 160W TDP card. 200/160 - 1 = 0.25 *100% = 25%.
    Or I could say, that 160W is 20% lower than 200W. 1-(160/200) * 100% = 20%.

    So card with 200W TDP will produce 25% more heat than card with 160W TDP, but it will not translate to 25% higher temps under the conditions that whole card works. GPU temp depends on multitude of factors, like cooler efficiency, ability to draw X watts of heat from the GPU surface, kind of material used to transfer the heat, ambient temps, amount of air used to cool the radiator etc. Since everything has it's limits, when you will try to expel more heat that the cooler is able, excess heat will accumulate rising the temps drastically. Opposite to this, when you use cooler which will be capable to expel more heat than chipset produces, you will have nice working temps.
    Since GTX460 coolers are practically the same as for GTX465 (looking at Gigabyte or MSI for ex.), the same cooler will have to deal with more heat. That will translate to higher temps (or higher RPM and noise to some point) and lower OC possibility for cards with higher TDP (which skyrockets when high OC is in the work.). GTX465 will close to the limit of cooling much faster than GTX460.

    As pointed out earlier - it's not fantasy - it is doable with GTX460 while maintaining nice noise level. Fair amount of user with non-reference air cooling (like Gigabyte or MSI) have their GTX460s at or close to 900MHz with safe working temps and good noise level. Look at the different forums for user reports.

    That's why I never mentioned liquid cooling as it is not the point of this discussions. Basically, what is achievable for GTX465 with vmod and high temps, is achievable for GTX460 without vmod.

    Again - never said anything about 20% increase in temps (nvm your wrong calculations.

    I've already explained my point in previous post. You wrote that GTX460/465 in SLI will produce less heat than GTX480 when not OC'ing, which isn't true. GTX460/465 SLI will always produce more heat than single GTX480 - it can be easily calculated from TDP, which I have done.

    To quote you:
    460/465 SLI pros:
    - less heat compared to a 480 if your not OCing

    So I didn't agree with you at the start of my phrase and then explained why later on. My conclusion was in agree with my statement.


    Yes, 2*lower TDP cards will in this case produce more overall heat than single GTX480, because total TDP of GTX460 and 465 in SLI is higher than single GTX480 - that's what I wrote in my conclusion. Maybe the upper part about "460/465 SLI pros: less heat compared to a 480 if your not OCing" was just a misspell from your part, but I've pointed this out earlier correctly.

    I know that GTX480 will have higher temps because, as I've already have written in previous post, it has only one limited cooling solution, while SLI cards obviously will have two similar ones and heat will be divided to two cards.

    Based on your statement the same principle apply to our argument - GTX465 will have higher temps than GTX460 (proved in many reviews - of course we are talking about cards with good cooling solutions, not the cheapest, crappiest ones), thus will be limited in OC much more than GTX460. That's why you can OC GTX460 to a non-fantasy 900MHz on air.

    No, I'm very happy with my purchase. I do a lot of research before buying new hardware and I know what I can expect from it. Gigabyte GTX460 perfectly fits my needs - it is reasonably priced, it has very good and quiet cooling solution, build quality is very good and GTX460 has massive OC potential if I will be needing more power.

    I don't want to win the argue or apply the truth where there is non to be found as you have said. Everything I've said had reference - you wanted points so I gave them to you. If you read them slowly without emotions you will see that they have logic in them and they are based on the general knowledge that you can find in tons of reviews, articles, studies etc. that have been written over the years. I don't try to rebut everything that you are saying, because most of it is true, but you have some things mixed up. If you present sound arguments that what I'm saying is not true then I will admit I was wrong and be happy that I've learned something new and better my knowledge.
     
  15. Sneakers

    Sneakers Ancient Guru

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    CoreyPL your full of s you know that right? :)

    What is the point of bringing up points in my post that I already pre edited in agreement with what you said?

    I wrote that I didn't believe the 460 gtx could go to 900c and 1800 shaders and maintain stability.
    I also wrote that I was somewhat wrong since I found several reviews stating they ran the 460 1g @ 870-885 but nobody could get a stable 900 c, not a single source and I went through a cupple just to dubble check. Also found that they ran the 465 stable at 860 c, wich was more then I thought.

    I mean what is up with just completly ignoring that part? Your not on the debate team, there is no winning in a discussion and you "argue" or discuss like your trying to win something here. Quoting bits and pieces that are conventient to reply to, completly pointless.

    Bottom line is the 465 is faster then the 460 at the same clocks, and as shown in the Guru3d review a 465 @ 830 ( correct me if im misstaken ) beats a 460 @ 885 wich is the highest OC I seen so far in any review.

    So seems the 460 needs a really good headstart to beat the 465, like you said 607c vs 725c is a big diffrence, when both are maxed out OC wise the diffrence is around 30-40 on the c wich isn't enough for the 460 to gain a lead over the "larger" 465. You must have come to that conclusion aswell.

    Also just drop the TDP straw grasping, it isn't that relevant, what is relevant in this discussion is how hot the cards run since that will be the culrpit when it comes to OCing. From a "clinic" PoV 2x 460/465 emmits more heat then a single 480, no brainer there but that heat is exhuasted and vented through the case. What matters is that the 480 runs at 80-90 degrees on stock clocks wich prevents any massive OCing. The 465 and the 460 in perticular does not have that problem. I mean isn't that well obvious, or you need me to spell everything out in detail just b/c I need to watch my trap from your somewhat over diligence in semantics?

    When I say 'SLI'd 460/465 less heat then single 480', I don't mean the TDP I mean the actual inner temperature and how that will effect any OC potential. OCed 460/465s in SLI = beastly stock 480 not that beastly, massivly OCed 480 on water = extremly beastly. Follow my reasoning now? Has nothing to do with the TDP ( well indirectly it does but thats not the point! ). TDP isn't 'linear' to inner temperature if the HSF can dissipate it, and the 460 and 465 does it well enough where the 480 is abit fail on that part. ( agree? )

    Regarding the 4890 Atom by shaphire alot of people ran those at 1100-1150C and some ran theirs at 1200 with voltmod.

    Just to conclude. The benches and reviews I been looking up for my own sake, have shown the Gigabyte and in perticular the Msi 465s to OC upwards 860 C and run cool enough for it to be viable 24/7, you saw it yourself in my links, MSI with 100% fan was like 56 degrees at 860c 100% load, I would not run it 100% and I would try to keep it sub 80 degrees prolly 70% fan.
    Point is it is viable where a 480 massivly OCed would not be viable on the stock solution for 24/7 for most ppl, 100% fan not nice.



    The 460s OCed to 885c linked shader ( highest OC I been able to find in any review ) tapped in behind the 465 @ 830ish c (?) in the Guru3d review.

    Comparing 607c vs 725 c is not a fair comparision, especially since we are talking the custom pcb/cooler models from Gigabyte, Asus and MSI.

    Really not sure what more there is to say. 460s are cooler but the 465 models I talked about runs cool enough for the 465 to reach high enough clocks to pass the 460. Just a matter of preference, I think having more SP's compared to clocks will benefit in shader heavy games and will grant a higher min fps due to beeing "beefier".


    /edit

    Ah mate, just found the 902 mhz C 460 you must have been refering to, the KFA SOC one. You where right it did 900 stable, highest I seen so far and temps where decent 72 degrees very nice. Still it pulls in on 117 fps on MW2 where the 465 at 830 ( alot lower then its max of 860 is featured on that techtweak w/e ) does 118 fps :) still 1 fps higher. As close as it gets, but I think we have to regard 900 as the max then no?
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2010

  16. CoreyPL

    CoreyPL Master Guru

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    Hey, I didn't do it on purpose, you know? :) When I've pressed "quote" older version of your post was still available. Just think about it - if new version was online when I've responded I wouldn't be able to quote old one because it wouldn't be available - forum doesn't store old versions. This was probably because I left the edit tab opened for longer than I usually do. I was interrupted for more than an hour when writing the response - that's why I still had your old post version in the quote area.
    As for quoting you - I've quoted whole paragraphs and your responses to my responses (lol) - again from the old version, so now it looks like I've chosen a little bits but I didn't :)

    Already agreed to it in previous post - same clocks GTX465 will win. But also I've added that GTX460 will clock higher with stability, so at the end GTX460 at let's say 860-900 (depending on the luck you will have with your card and if you have one that permits voltage tweaking) could end up as fast\faster to GTX465 at 830, which would seem to be around max for this chip on air.

    607MHz vs 675MHz - stock GTX465 vs stock GTX460. Yep, also agreed on that in previous post. But like you can see in reviews, 830 for GTX465 is with vmod, and GTX460 can do 900 with vmod - so they could end up the same or close to each other at the end.

    Also agreed to that in previous post - one cooling solution for 250W won't even get close to two of them that will have to disperse "only" 320W-400W total.

    OK, after you've explained what you had in mind I do agree to that. But when you use "heat", you write about emitting it (suggesting TDP), that's why I protested to this argument. If you would have used "hot" instead of "heat" I would agree with you from the beginning.

    I will have to look it up just for curiosity, as I don't have my HD4890 anymore. I've seen people doing 1GHz, even 1050MHz on air, but never that high. Wonder how hot was the VRM section on 1200MHz, because this was one of the biggest OC stoppers on my 4890.


    Yeah, seen it on your edited version. I would never go with a fan at 100% just to get 10-20MHz more - my ears would not take it :)

    607 vs 675. Guru was able to push MSI with vmod to 927MHz - pretty impressive. And even more impressive 880MHz on EVGA without vmods. That + redesigned SM's would compensate lacking of 1GPC. And I've seen many guys going ~900MHz or more stable and 24/7 on the Gigabyte when I've read the forums before my purchase.

    I would compare clocks on 465/470/480, because they are based on the same chip with less or more cuts. Since GF104 is redesigned chip, I personally don't like to compare clocks for chips from different lines. GF100 was design from the start to be high-end chip, while GF104 was designed as a mid-end chip. And NVIDIA shot itself in a foot by doing card equal in performance to more expensive (at the time) model from the bottom of high-end line that debuted only 1.5 months before that :) People that have bought GTX465 before the GTX460 premiere were furious at the NVIDIA.

    Yeah, more SP the better :) Especially tessellation performance took a hit on GTX460 because of lower SP count. But you have to admit, that GTX460 with one whole GPC missing and being clocked only 68MHz more than standard GTX465 + with lower TDP and temps, being equal in performance in games is pretty impressive. And with higher OC potential of GTX460 this cards can be equal on their own max stable clocks.

    Not only KFA one, but it is a good example. I've also been referring to Guru reviews that I've linked in previous post and the Gigabyte results on the Polish forums I frequent. Basically every GTX460 I've seen been stable on 900MHz with vmod. People with better cooling solutions like the one from MSI and Gigabyte that had luck with getting the chip from a good batch even did close to 950MHz - but personally I would never leave that high OC as 24/7 on air. 900MHz should be pretty doable with a little vmod practically for everyone and should still give nice temps and noise level.
    GTX465 will benefit more from higher clocks, as you've said, but I've seen that 830MHz with vmod is rather max stable for general. Few lucky ones can go higher. So max stable GTX465 = max stable GTX460 in games for the most cases.

    So after all that long posts we practically agree on almost everything :) That wasn't so bad you see. And I admit, I am a pain in the ass when it comes to that kind of discussions :p

    P.S. I think the OP is having the best kicks out of our discussion <lol>
     
  17. Shagula

    Shagula Master Guru

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    Not just OP :) I think thats the first 'Debate" i've ever seen in a forum that hasnt stooped to people full on raging at each other. Respect+ ;)
     
  18. BeLGaRaTh_67

    BeLGaRaTh_67 Member

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    :) After the discussion I thought it best to go with one of each of the cards so have ordered a 480 a 465 and a 460 and will use them in 3 way SLi, hopefully it will work :)

    I decided to go with 460 SLi, I changed the cards to Gainward 1GB Golden Samples as the Palit's were still not in stock and they were the only other ones they could get. And I changed the cooler to a Noctua u-12, they said it should just about fit within the case as apparently it is quite a high fan, but it does seem to be one of the better coolers :)

    Cheers for all the help, hopefully everything should be here early next week so the build can get underway
     
  19. CoreyPL

    CoreyPL Master Guru

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    Palit is basically Gainward, so you will get the same card, just with different sticker. BIOS files from Palit also work for Gainward, so if you get cards that go into jet mode at the moment you run the game, it will indicate the need for new BIOS. If the card is from a new batch it will have new BIOS factory loaded.

    And you will be much more happy with Noctua instead that Thermalright that you have planned. Noctua has very good performance and very silent fans.
     
  20. BeLGaRaTh_67

    BeLGaRaTh_67 Member

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    The other one to look out for is the missing heatsink or whatever it is? Or is that ust the Palit's? Either way extremely happy that the ball is rolling now on this build, though it has set me back £1,400 :(
     

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