3700 PBO vs Manual OC?

Discussion in 'Processors and motherboards AMD' started by moab600, Apr 14, 2020.

  1. moab600

    moab600 Ancient Guru

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    Been debating that during this week.

    As i can get all cores to 4.3 using 1.27V but i'm afraid to degrade the cpu fast.

    On the other side, PBO plays with way too high voltages and as a result, my temps are higher using PBO vs manual OC.

    Has someone experienced with both? what is better for performance and less heat?
     
  2. anticupidon

    anticupidon Ancient Guru

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    I tried only the PBO and not so much with manual OC.
    PBO sometimes would set the idle voltage uncomfortable high, and CPU fan would kick in quite loud.
    Upgraded to a beQuiet Dark Rock cooler and set the offset voltage to -0.1 V and disabled PBO , only set the XMP @3200 later on @3600 leaving all other RAM settings default.
    Set the CPU to 3.8 and computer runs cool and quiet.
    I will OC the CPU when I will really need it.
     
  3. EtherPhoenix

    EtherPhoenix Member

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    CPU degradation at 1.27V? Is AMD`s cpu that fragile now? KEKW
    Honestly i doubt you can degrade cpu even with 1.35 @ 24\7\365 in 10 years.
     
  4. Webhiker

    Webhiker Master Guru

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    If you are using the newest chipset drivers and AMD's power plan.
    Then try the following : (reset BIOS to default and then change)

    • Disable PBO
    • Global C-state = enabled
    • CPPC = enabled
    • CPPC preferred cores = enabled
    • PPC adjustment = Pstate 0
    Just use search in your BIOS to find these settings.
    Most likely the PPC adjustment won't be there, but that's ok the top 4 is the important ones.
    Disabling PBO will activate precision boost 2.0 for clock management.
    After doing this you will have a cool and silent system that will deliver when needed.
     
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  5. moab600

    moab600 Ancient Guru

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    I tried those and ran Cinebench with PBO2, it boosts all cores to 4.1GHZ and the temp is 74C.

    Manual OC i can put all to 4.3 GHZ using v1.27 and the temp will be 68.

    It just seems that clocks go up and down but voltage stays the same when i put it via manual mode, is it normal?
     
  6. liviut

    liviut Member Guru

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    as you are forcing manual override voltage it's normal to be like that
     
  7. moab600

    moab600 Ancient Guru

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    I remember with mine 4770K it would also lower the voltage despite the offset i put.

    I guess Ryzen works differently.
     
  8. liviut

    liviut Member Guru

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    if you put it as offset sure but override is something else
     
  9. moab600

    moab600 Ancient Guru

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    I put an + offest on my Ryzen too and CPUZ reports static voltage, same with Ryzen master.
     
  10. gerardfraser

    gerardfraser Ancient Guru

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    This is not true on Ryzen CPU with off setting CPU voltages.Well here is some more confusion,why not tweak your BIOS to have higher CPU clock and low voltages with CPU off set without clock stretching or weird stuff.
    Why are you worried about a CPU with a warranty degrading.If it was Intel CPU would you also worry about overclocking.

    Cinebench20 run with BIOS settings for tweak/bug
    Single Thread-530 score
    Multi Thread -5260 score
    Idle temperature CPU-28°C
    Max temperature CPU-71°C
    Max CPU Core Voltage (SVI2 TFN) reached-1.431v

    Settings in BIOS
    MCLK/UCLK/FCLK Synced 1:1:1 1933Mhz ,that's DDR4 3866Mhz for those who do not know.
    PBO Manual
    PPT= 0 actual max limit reached 90.4% in video
    TDC=0 actual max limit reached 81.4% in video
    EDC=1 actual max limit reached 7737.7% in video
    Scaler 10X
    PBO Override 500Mhz

    Video of Cinebench20
     
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  11. Mr. Sunshine

    Mr. Sunshine Master Guru

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    gerardfraser is right. If you can find the time to dig into your boards behavior and bios you can have best of both. I have a 3700X and here is what I get:

    Cinebench15 run with BIOS settings for tweak
    Single Thread-208 score
    Multi Thread -2226 score
    Cinebench20 run
    Single Thread-2510 score
    Multi Thread -5105 score

    Idle temperature CPU-26°C
    Max temperature CPU-72°C
    Max CPU Core Voltage-1.432v

    MCLK/UCLK/FCLK Synced 1:1:1 1900Mhz ,that's DDR4 3800Mhz

    Now as far as clocks it pulls 4.2ghz in Heavy loads(CB,Prime). Lightly threaded loads top out at 4.425-4.40ghz and in games and reg loaded programs I hit 4.375ghz steady.
     
  12. moab600

    moab600 Ancient Guru

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    Is that with PBO?

    So far it seems i can run manual 4.3GHZ on all cores at 1.27V, got the best temps so far.
     
  13. Mr. Sunshine

    Mr. Sunshine Master Guru

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    No PBO. Just alot of tweaking. 4.3ghz@ 1.27v is great and will perform no different than 4.375ghz in games, etc. The 72c max temp is running CB20 or some other heavy load. My temps sit in the 55-62c range when gaming and stuff so temps aren't issue here.
     
  14. Personally, I'm really enjoying the 45W ECO mode variant of PBO - being an SFX/ITX user here. Manual overclocking puts me into a position of having to dictate a lot from custom voltages to additional board power settings like power management, advanced memory features & c-states depending on what type of overclock I want to configure not to mention higher temperatures on average than with PBOl
     
  15. moab600

    moab600 Ancient Guru

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    Settled on 4.3GHZ at 1.27V, shame my memory can't oc to 3400mhz(probably if i up the latency up, which won't be effective).
     

  16. gerardfraser

    gerardfraser Ancient Guru

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    DDR4 3000Mhz can be just as fast as DDR4 3866Mhz on Ryzen,just tightening timings best as you can.Then all will be fine and you miss any performance.
     
  17. kosta20071

    kosta20071 Member Guru

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    I hate PBO. See no reason to use it. On my 3950X the temp spikes and voltage is way too high when idle.
    And all of this for what? to see higher speed clock on some cpus when the cpu is almost idle?
    when the cpu is under stress the voltage drops and with it the cpu clocks drop a lot.
    Manual OC is much better in every way - performance wise and also much cooler .
    PBO is awful.
     
  18. GarrettL

    GarrettL Master Guru

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    My experience with a 3800x and PBO enabled has been good.
     
  19. bobblunderton

    bobblunderton Master Guru

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    I type this while not being sure what is needed to get 4.3ghz so badly on all cores... Please don't take ANY of this as condescending speak, negative or anything else of the like. It is only words, I just know no other better way of putting this.
    The joy of having Ryzen 3000 (and a bit less, the older Ryzen processors), is that it'll clock up when needed, with lots of cores or just a single core, and generally not bake you out of the room or the like, all the while not making much noise (which lastly is a bit case-dependent or airflow-dependent). You should have all the performance you need, out of the box; and not need to OC it manually like Intel chips all the while hoping it's stable - while not putting out nearly as much heat/using half the power as Intel chips would do. Overclocking manually somewhat undoes this.
    My 3700x does all that I need for content creation when left at default. I only enabled XMP and left everything else at stock settings. I left release day BIOS on to prove a point, too, to prove that it works just fine if folks stay OUT of the bios voltage sections (as there were so many cases of 'I lowered voltage and boosting isn't working!'). However, seeing as you paid for your parts, and it is your time, money, resources (and power bill), I cannot and will not tell you how to run your life, or PC. That said, I can try to add my 2¢ to the mix from experience of two dozen plus years doing this stuff... My first PC had an AM486 DX/2 66 chip after-all, back when a motherboard could take any brand chip.
    If you limit the voltage and run AVX type stuff, with using the FPU heavy, such as physics or encoding things, it WILL drop the clocks some as you're starving the chip. Limiting the voltage is much like limiting the amount of fuel or air going into an engine to half it's maximum, where it'll run fine at idle and driving around town, but you might starve it when flooring it to get on the highway. A lot of folks who got boost issues with Ryzen especially at launch, had lowered max core voltage, or had left on the "factory AMD cooler-with-way-too-much-paste". The AMD cooler is okay for stock operation, provided you don't mind the noise of the lower-end models, but the one coming with the 8-core models and the copper-base one from the 3600x (if it still comes with copper at all!) was OK, provided you used about 1/3rd or less the amount of paste on it that it comes with - because it came with a paper-board thickness of paste...
    Essentially, what I am saying is: flipping on PBO or manually overclocking, (close to) DOUBLES the power usage and then generates a TON of heat (and more noise in the process), while only gaining 2~10%. That's not always worth it. Generally if folks spend a ton on better cooling, a better motherboard, and a high-air-flow case, they could have just bought run-of-the-mill parts and paid for a better CPU with a normal 30$~40$ cooler (or used the AMD stock cooler, provided it's not an Intel chip again).
    Now that having all been said... If you're still reading and don't hate me (though I honestly don't blame you if you do, to be fair, this IS really poorly structured!)...
    If you feed the chip LOTS of voltage, it will ONLY start degrading (electro-migration) in it's useful life (3~5 years) at all if both VOLTAGE & HEAT are present. Slightly over-volting a chip or running it near it's max won't degrade it by itself to any reasonable amount (for the sake of argument) if it's kept quite cool. So if you're not passing 80~85C sustained temps through the chip, you will be fine. To that end, hitting 80~85C now and then for a short bit won't kill it either. Getting to 90C or above regularly will shorten the life, however, and the resultant heat could injure your board VRM setup if the heat is not removed from those components efficiently enough also. Make sure they have enough cooling and that they aren't going over 90C also, though they can take a little more heat than the CPU cores can, power stages (VRM) are much less efficient at higher temps, just like your power supply unit itself. You're not trying to make a sustained nuclear reaction there, after-all - you don't need it going critical. This is also why OEM coolers are generally designed to blow down - blowing air into the CPU and then out the sides of the heatsink on the VRM components of the motherboard. Motherboards without heatsinks on the VRM rely on this to keep things cooler, though the majority of big-name boards will run fine with case ambient airflow under default operation (yes, even with cheaper big-name boards with non-solid capacitors). Big-name overclocking boards however may be fine if not pushed too far if you have good case airflow and a tower cooler. Water-cooling units and overclocking may warrant some additional airflow user-provided by a fan near the VRM area, as there's no fan on the CPU itself in that instance. Many people forget about that last bit - the CPU isn't the only thing making heat, especially with a rather toasty graphics card right below it and heat rising with natural convection.
    The reason voltage looks high on Ryzen 3xxx is the IO chip design of it, where the IO chip gets the highest voltage as it's 12nm VS the cpu chiplet that's 7nm. Don't be scared of BIOS defaults of 1.5v or so, I am pretty sure by now most motherboard manufacturers (while certainly not infallible) and the chip maker writing the specs, do know what they are doing to a point. Having the latest BIOS (even though I do not, I never mess with that stuff UNLESS there's a problem) will make sure you get the most out of your CPU at stock settings.
    I wish you the best with it, though if you want to go through overclocking stuff because you enjoy it, and all the stability testing time it takes; Intel is a better choice for that experience. With Intel you need to overclock to get the most out of it, where Ryzen does it pretty much automatically.
    Please feel free to quote and add corrections if any of this is wrong, or subject to controversy. I am always open to new ideas.
    --Good luck!
    P.S. Just make sure using the stuff you paid for is stable AND enjoyable, don't make work out of it.
     
  20. JonasBeckman

    JonasBeckman Ancient Guru

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    1Usmus had a pretty good guide for the Threadripper which should extend to the Ryzen as well for overclocking and the newer ways for AMD systems. :)
    https://www.techpowerup.com/review/...locking-deep-dive-asus-rog-zenith-ii-extreme/

    Good gains too far as I can see but it takes work to find favored cores, doing it per CCX and setting optimal values and offsets and not pushing the CPU too hard or using too much voltage and such.


    Voltage, degradation and performance plus bios, power schedule and the chipset drivers and all that is down to just a lot of testing and either going with the default or trying to fine tune it but it's a bit of work and manufacture specifics for PBO, voltage calibration and vdroop and all that takes some figuring out.

    I stuck a oversized Noctua fan on the 3900X (*) and set the XMP profile and power saving stuff and chipset drivers, it's not perfect but I maintain around a 4.2 Ghz average although not much will push every single core so total full load under extreme situations will drop lower and burst boost speeds will hit higher which also includes voltages but that's fine although manual constant higher voltages should be avoided.

    *
    https://www.techpowerup.com/review/1usmus-custom-power-plan-for-ryzen-3000-zen-2-processors/
    https://www.techpowerup.com/review/1usmus-power-plan-for-amd-ryzen-new-developments/

    This bit in particular for part of how the CPU boosts and temperature particularly the newer bios updates.
    Water cooling and good power delivery coupled with high-speed low-latency/lower timing memory kits should be giving some really nice results but there's more to how the CPU operates plus overall binning variances and all that.

    AGESA 1.0.0.5 and upcoming 1.0.0.6 apparently is also slowly rolling out, nothing specific for overclock behavior is listed but motherboard specific or vendor specific fixes in addition to AGESA updating could also affect things, Gigabyte which I'm on has had a variety of bugs and offset voltages to and from to name one which is also why measuring and monitoring is important so it does actually use good values not too high or not too low either hampering stability or max performance. :)
    (Among other things, newest bios updates have been a improvement but the new X490's seem to have regressed a bit?)



    EDIT: Think there's something like a maximum range or cap as well on these, 3900 and 3950 I believe is 4.7 Ghz with boost up to 4.5 possible (Ideal conditions and far from guaranteed.) under lower load situations but benchmarks and extreme tests will likely hit lower.

    Gaming and system usage at best maybe currently loads up 4 - 6 sometimes 8 cores nice and good so speeds here end up around 4.2 - 4.3 Ghz which well for the pretty light amount of work it can get better but it's a good overall until I learn more on how this all operates and works.

    And honestly I wouldn't trust automatic solutions too much including PBO even if it might allow a bit higher at the cost of more voltage and heat that could be better if dialed in carefully with some manual tweaking.
    (Not sure how well it works in the newest AMD updates and all either, seems like feedback on that is a bit too mixed to say for sure.)
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2020

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