$15 per hour minimum wage...your thoughts?

Discussion in 'The Guru's Pub' started by airbud7, Sep 3, 2017.

  1. DerSchniffles

    DerSchniffles Maha Guru

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    Here in Washington state the minimum wage just changed from $9.57 to $11.00. All it did was make everything more expensive. Not sure its the way to go...Not really sure how I feel about it tbh. It would seem like minimum wage is to keep companies honest more than being acceptable to live off of. When I made minimum wage, there was no way I could live on my own, I had to have roommates and drive a crappy car, etc. Or get a second job which I did for a bit. But there are always lifestyle choices and tons of variables that come with that territory. I work with someone who always complains about being broke and she smokes a pack of cigs a day @ $9.00 a pack....of course shes broke all the time!
     
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  2. airbud7

    airbud7 Ancient Guru

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  3. D3M1G0D

    D3M1G0D Master Guru

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    Not everyone has the same opportunities in life. Those who are born into middle-to-upper class families tend to have better access to education (as well as good food, healthcare, etc) and that gives them a leg up. The poor are at a significant disadvantage, not having the financial means for a good education, which severely limits their job opportunities (a vicious cycle which keeps poor people poor). Although there are cases where a poor individual becomes wealthy, they are the exception, not the rule.

    I was lucky to have been born into a middle-class family, receive a good education, and find a good job. Although I work hard at my job, I don't consider myself particularly hard-working or industrious compared to someone making minimum wage as a cashier (and I've worked as a cashier). If I had been born under different circumstances then I could very well be working a minimum wage job right now, with very little prospects for upward mobility.

    A minimum wage hike allows us to help close the wealth gap, ensuring that people have enough to live on, as well as enough to put themselves through school so that they can get a better job in the future. Just telling people to work harder isn't going to achieve anything - I guarantee you that there are people who make a lot less than I do while working much longer hours.

    P.S., I very much appreciate the work that servers do at fast food restaurants. I don't look down on them as a lower class of worker just because they make less than me, nor do I think that they are lazier than me (I've worked in a coffee store before and know how hectic and tiring it can be).
     
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  4. Loophole35

    Loophole35 Ancient Guru

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    I don't look down on anyone that works hard in the food Industry however those that just act like "this job ain't worth my time" are the ones I speak of.

    To your first half of your post. My dad grew up in a broken home. Mother and father were divorced raised mostly by a single mother with a drinking problem. His dad was too busy with his new wife. My dad basically raised his younger brothers. He finally got away from his mother and went to live with his dad (not exactly a model father mind you but at least he was stable) and took over an auto shop in downtown Jacksonville. My mom grew up in a family of 7 children and was the second youngest. She was basically dirt poor. Worked multiple minimum wage jobs then got her foot in the door with a very good company as just a basic office worker that paid for her college courses to get a BA in accounting and she now runs their payroll department. They are both people that show Drive is what you need to succeed not birth standing.
     
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  5. airbud7

    airbud7 Ancient Guru

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    You always have my respect Loophole forever and I think D3M1G0D has a valid point also....

    I guess where we live has a lot to do with the outcome of our lifestyle...

    So glad I live in the south!
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
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  6. D3M1G0D

    D3M1G0D Master Guru

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    I don't know the fully history of my family, but I do know that both my mom and dad were grew up in the post-war years (this was the Korean war). Back then, South Korea was a very poor, war-ravaged country so they necessarily grew up poor as well. They immigrated to Canada when I was seven years old and worked their hands to the bone to support me and my sister (and to this day, they still work long shifts at their convenience store, rarely taking a day off).

    They did have some financial help along the way though, as a relatively wealthy benefactor gifted them their first business (and I think a car). At any rate, they instilled in me the ethics of hard work and education (as most Asian families tend to) and I carry that over with me today, but I also recognize the enormous advantage that I had over other people. I've never been been lacking in food or healthcare, always lived in a warm, comfortable home, and never had to take on debt for my post-secondary education - I know many former students who are still struggling to pay off their debt, unable to really own anything for years or even decades.

    Although I'm a successful software developer today, it wasn't entirely by my own efforts. I've had a lot of help along the way, and I think many other people (including those working at minimum wage jobs) would do just as well, given the same opportunities. What I would like is for all people to be given a decent chance at a good life, and a realistic chance to succeed. A minimum wage that is barely sufficient will not do that - without some external help, there is virtually no chance for upward mobility, as all your effort, time and money will go towards just keeping yourself alive. I think raising the minimum wage to something that is livable will go a long way to getting people out of poverty, as it will allow them to maintain a higher standard of living, as well as access to education and a higher-paying job, if not for themselves then for their children.

    Note that I don't mean to downplay the importance of effort and drive, just that there's a lot of luck and circumstances involved as well. Like the nurture vs nature debate, I think there a bit of both in how financially successful people become. Some are given the chance and succeed due to their efforts, and some don't succeed, due to their own incompetence or laziness. Others, however, are never given the chance at all.
     
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  7. Loophole35

    Loophole35 Ancient Guru

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    Luck does play a role but I would venture to say drive takes an equal or larger role. You can have all the luck in the world but if you lack the drive you will fail.
     
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  8. airbud7

    airbud7 Ancient Guru

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    Wow Loop and D3M/....Y'all are cool as heck!....I love reading the post its like a book!...I wish I could type like Y'all do!

    best part is...y'all both for real......
     
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  9. Icanium

    Icanium Maha Guru

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    So true airbud, a gofundme was set up for that individual that raised something like $200,000 for him. http://www.businessinsider.com/gofundme-raises-300000-for-working-guy-2015-2
    People working at minimum or low wages should
    not be stereotyped per those comments. Think, why did this individual walk 21 miles to work, because he didn't have a car, why didn't he have a car? because he was in a low wage job.
    Ask yourself how would you do those point if you had no transportation and you were not a cherry picked example.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
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  10. IcE

    IcE Don Snow Staff Member

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    I think this debate takes away from the real issue, which is that we have an increasingly large amount of the population that has been displaced from reasonable employment opportunities where they can care for themselves and their families with a reasonable level of effort. I personally don't think its fair to put the burden of this portion of society on minimum wage employers, because it's not the employer's fault. Could they realistically afford to pay more? I'm sure. But the market isn't going to bear it for the simple reason that there's a nearly unlimited sea right now of uneducated, desperate workers. Increasing the minimum wage is a temporary bandaid that is going to increase the pace towards automation and make the situation even worse. It's basically a huge tax on companies that operate using uneducated labor.

    So, after considering this fact, what are realistic, economical solutions to this problem? Population growth is exploding across the globe, and the demand for a middle class has created this globalist market where the can gets kicked down the road so that as many people as possible can buy into consumerism. This is a literal race to the bottom, because at some point human labor has little to no value whatsoever.

    I'm tired so I probably didn't articulate this as well as I would have liked, but I think the only real solution to this is a "living wage" system where you get paid to live at a basic level. We're not hitting post scarcity anytime soon and human labor is not going to increase in value, so I don't see any other stop gap solutions that won't cause mass riots and crime.
     
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  11. airbud7

    airbud7 Ancient Guru

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    True.....I'll admit you got me on that one Bro....
     
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  12. Clouseau

    Clouseau Ancient Guru

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    I stated that based on when minimum wage was initiated that it translated to the ball park of $15/hr, that did not include "benefits". Company paid healthcare needs to be accounted for. Back then, one could not afford to get ill. What drove down the minimum wage was the inclusion of the value of company paid health insurance and paid time off, sick leave and the like. 1938, can bet that no one on minimum wage was given paid time off. All that came later and was factored into the hourly wage. So, raising minimum wage with company paid benefits on top of it, makes for something minimum wage was not initially created for. It was designed to give any individual in the labor force access to the basic necessities. Auto insurance was not a necessity then as it is now. Health insurance was not a necessity like it is now. All that costs and both sides need to come to an agreeable compromise. What does economics tell us, not all of the increased costs will be passed on to the consumer. If it is, then one word ... greed. Breakeven is just pushed a little further out.

    Today's time, minimum wage needs to be higher than the value received while on welfare or other social assistance programs or what's the point of working. We dug our own hole. No one is willing to be the bad guy and state welfare is like unemployment, benefits only last for a temporary amount of time. But for that tough of a stance, there have to be jobs that pay more than the value of the social benefit(s) received. Does not matter if the individual does not want to work that job. Disability has its place too; exists for a reason. Those able to work need to and be paid enough allowing them to take care of themselves. Refusing to work is an option but there are consequences to that choice.
     
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  13. Loobyluggs

    Loobyluggs Ancient Guru

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    One of the greatest economists of the last 100 years speaks on this topic, and was required reading when I was at school studying economics.



    A fairly straight video using analogies, but certainly correct.



    And an interesting debate from the future President of the United States of America.



    And my favourite quote from this debate at the end by Mr future President:

    "At what point is economic equality soft? Why not just pay everyone the same amount, regardless of the job they do; and we can have the government nationalise all business to accomplish this? That would be economic equality at its finest, otherwise you are sanctioning economic inequality of one level or another".

    Snap!
     
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  14. Loophole35

    Loophole35 Ancient Guru

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    Addressing the minimum wage is a distraction.

    What needs to be solved is the devaluing of currency and increasing cost of living.
     
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  15. Brasky

    Brasky Ancient Guru

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    increasing the minimum wage would take away the drive to get out of that crappy position. The goal isn't to stay at that low level forever, it's job is to increase your desire for responsibility/skills so that you can move up and or out of a company.
     
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  16. jbmcmillan

    jbmcmillan Ancient Guru

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    So you base your whole opinion in this matter on the one guy in your shop.I already know you'll say there are many more like that but will fail to come up with any examples except anecdotal things you've heard from friends.Not sure who said it but raising minimum wage shouldn't be done all at one and should be done in stages to allow businesses to adjust. Not everyone is working low paying jobs due to lack of effort or laziness. Fallacy.
     
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  17. sykozis

    sykozis Ancient Guru

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    I have a friend that was born into a family where neither his mother or father graduated high school. They both worked part time jobs for minimum wage. They owned 1 car that half the time was broke down. They also supported his grandmother. He had more opportunities for an education that I had. When he graduated high school, he was offered a scholarship. He's now a business owner and very well off. He took his money, paid off his family's debts and is very generous in giving back to our community. All throughout his childhood people kept telling him that he'd never have the same opportunities that someone like me would have. So, instead of whining and crying about it or feeling sorry for himself, or blaming others, he made the opportunities happen. He was incredibly motivated. He didn't do much better than me in school, but he made an impact on the right people at the right time.

    Motivation is the biggest key to success, regardless of all else. Saying that people don't have the same opportunities because of their financial upbringing is the biggest lie anyone can tell. Kids these days have no motivation to do well in school because they're told that they don't or won't have the same opportunities as people born into families with a better financial position. I personally know 4 people who were born into financially broken homes that now own very successful businesses because they actually put effort into life.

    Effort and Motivation are what determine where your life will go.

    The problem with raising minimum wage, regardless of how long a period of time you do it over, is inflation. Whether you raise minimum wage over the course of 1 year or 10 years, inflation will balance things out and minimum wage will return to being unlivable.

    People screamed that the previous $5.15/hr was unlivable, so it was raised to $7.25/hr. When minimum wage was $5.15/hr, it was possible to survive on $7.25/hr. However, since the increase, inflation has caught up. Now $7.25/hr is unlivable. Inflation will always follow minimum wage increases, as will the cost of living. Companies aren't going to sacrifice profits to give employees a wage increase. Instead, they raise prices which results in the cost of living going up.

    You're right. Not everyone is working a minimum wage job due to lack of effort or laziness. At least not directly. Some do it due to lack of education, which in a lot of cases can be traced back to lack of effort or laziness. Everyone in the US has the same access to education. Of course, not everyone has access to "ivy league" schools but everyone has access to a college education or trade school education. It's just a matter of putting in the effort in your primary education, or filling out a few forms. There are grants that cover education (at least for now anyway....). There are even student loans. Some companies will even help cover the costs of trade school educations.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2017
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  18. vf

    vf Ancient Guru

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    Positive mental attitude.
    youtu.be/xf7ufPU4M5I?t=31s
     
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  19. IcE

    IcE Don Snow Staff Member

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    The thing is, the best we can do economically is have a system where those who are motivated and hard working can ascend the economic ladder. There will ALWAYS be members of society who won't or cannot contribute. We can't all be fortune 500 CEO's. Inequality is a baked in facet of the human species. Just like how we're all competitive. That's why socialism never works out. Someone always thinks they should be getting paid more than someone else, so corruption and perversion runs rampant. Capitalism sucks but it at least allows a legitimate vector for people to be competitive and duke it out with each other.
     
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  20. D3M1G0D

    D3M1G0D Master Guru

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    http://economy.money.cnn.com/2013/11/13/making-it-into-the-middle-class/

    "Of people born into lower income households, few will ever make it into the middle class, according to a recent study from Pew Charitable Trust. Only a tiny percentage rise into the highest income bracket."

    According to this study, 70% of poor families remain poor, with only 26% rising into the middle-class and a mere 4% into high earners.

    As I said before, a poor person/family becoming wealthy is the exception, not the rule. For every poor person who succeeds, there are a dozen who fail and remain poor. The cycle of poverty is a real thing and it needs to be addressed with something more tangible than just "work harder".
     
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