‘Pre-owned a bigger problem than piracy’

Discussion in 'Games, Gaming & Game-demos' started by Liranan, May 14, 2010.

  1. Devolution

    Devolution Ancient Guru

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  2. k3vst3r

    k3vst3r Ancient Guru

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    Crazy people 2.5 million sales just on xbox 360 :wanker::wanker::wanker:
     
  3. Alexstarfire

    Alexstarfire Ancient Guru

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    You, like many, need to read up on laws. The EULA, and whatever else you read, AFTER purchasing the product basically means nothing. They pretty much never hold up in a court of law. The primary reasons being obvious. The first being that the EULA pretty much can't be read without purchasing and opening the product. The second the product is open you can't return it. You can trade it out for another copy, but that's it. The second reason is that pretty much no one reads them. TBH I think that's a bit of a crock, but it makes sense. Ever tried reading an EULA? They continuously get longer and longer and you have one for EVERY program you purchase. They can be different even if from the same company. Last one I tried reading was for the SC2 Beta. Damn thing must be 10+ pages. I shouldn't have to read a book every time I want to use a program.

    Ok, aside from that little rant at the end I feel I spelled it out pretty well. Reselling qualifies as fair-use and should be protected under the DMCA, for now at least. As such they can't prevent you from reselling. This is more of a work-around because of that.
     
  4. Mr.Bigtime

    Mr.Bigtime Ancient Guru

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    By the word " this happens because digital". From that point i want to underline a subject that a guru member posted in 2006 about piracy. He was saying; lets say u r walking and saw 50 $ on the ground. What u gonna do? Leave it or take it. Most of u will take. So piracy is same. The object stands there on internet, u just get it.

    On topic, i dont bother. I buy my games digitally already. God bless internet.
     

  5. deltatux

    deltatux Ancient Guru

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    EULA licensing ... another example I can think of is theme parks carnival games. I used to sell these games for my first job at Canada's Wonderland. I actually got into a small argument with a guest over this. The guy's like, well I paid for the game, I now own it. I was like, no you don't. I just sold you the right to play the game and try and see if you can win a prize. I did not sell you the deed to the game just like software publishers didn't sell you their product, they just sold a license for you to use their software.

    It's also like a driver's license. You buy the car, the car's yours, but in order to legally operate it, you must have a license and the government can revoke it if it so choose to (usually via dangerous driving).

    deltatux
     
  6. Alexraptor

    Alexraptor Maha Guru

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    Actually here in europe(or sweden) You actually own the physical product your purchase and the pysical material on the disc(yes the data is indeed physical).
    For your own use you can do whatever you want with it, destroy it, make backup copies even decompile and reverse engineer it.... as long as it is for your own personal use ONLY.
    Indeed, if there is a defect with the disc such as perhaps files that were corrupted or even if the program has a really really serious bug, it is legally required that the retailer or manufacturer replace it.
    The EULA is only valid so far until challenged, as many as said never hold up in court.
    But they pretty cheap and effective since people usually would rather pay up than have a long drawn out and expensive court case on their hands.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2010
  7. Covert

    Covert Maha Guru

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    That is the best way to make anyone understand, Brilliant interpretation 10/10 :)
     
  8. 91LudeSiT

    91LudeSiT Master Guru

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    I think the US government and courts will side with whoever has the most money. Either way its going to be a huge hurt to the retail industry, and to folks like myself. I rarely purchase a new game, the only NEW games I've bought in the last 2 years were Fairy Tale fights and ODST, both of which I paid much less then retail for 20 and 25 respectively. I have a personal limit when I go game shopping of not to spend more then 30 dollars for a game, mainly because in most cases I get bored after 10-15 minutes and the game sits in a pile.
     
  9. ElementalDragon

    ElementalDragon Ancient Guru

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    Liranan: Sorry for being quite late to respond. OLED's you say? Yes, i know that R&D for them is costing TV manufacturer's a small fortune. That also explains why you can buy a nice 50" 3D Ready LED HDTV for about the same price as an 11" OLED TV. TV manufacturers.... computer manufacturers.... hell, any company that makes a product where the product itself is usable, makes up the cost of developing said product in the MSRP of the product. Same with the car manufacturer's you mentioned. Games can't do that. If a game developer released a standard version of a game for $100+..... no bonuses..... not a "Collector's Edition".... just a regular, run-of-the-mill game... as an example, say Crysis 2.... very, VERY few people would buy it, and piracy rates would skyrocket even moreso than they already are.

    And no... i'm not saying you're paying for the medium. while yes, you are paying for the disc (Pfft).... you're paying for the license to use the software. You don't legally own the software. If you did, the idea of a "Copyright holder" would be rather rediculous.... because anybody that bought the software would technically be a copyright holder at that point, being able to do with the software what they will.

    Raiasokura: It's not so much the idea of money for another game. It's the idea that when someone trades in a game.... as we all know, they practically get pennies on the dollar for what they paid for the game (You know.... you buy a game for say $50-60.... try to trade it in a week later and you'd be lucky to get half that). So while the developer of the game got money from the initial purchase of the game.... and the store lost a small amount of money from the trade-in.... they make up for that by marking the game back up to a few dollars under it's current retail price, and not only do the pre-owned games sell a lot more often than the brand new ones (I'm guilty on that bit... only reason i bought MAG for PS3 was because there was a trade-in copy for a couple bucks cheaper, and my friend bought a copy too), but the retail store keeps the money made from the sale. as far as i'm aware, none of that money goes to the developer.

    So, the reason they're saying it's a bigger problem than piracy is because not only does it have a similar effect on the developers.... where multiple people will play the game using the same disc, it has the added punch of making money for the companies accepting trade-ins for software they don't own.
     
  10. Svein_Skogen

    Svein_Skogen Maha Guru

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    I think it's time we go to our local consumer authorities (in Europe we have consumer authorities that are actually equipped with teeth, and have even made Apple back down), and request that all resale-hostile software-packages (or packages containing _ANY_ sort of DRM) gets a warning stamp. Sort of like the ones on the cigarette packs (hey, DRM has been proven to be damaging to computers, just check up on Sony rootkits and Starforce).

    I suggest the following text, red on blue, in a circle: "Broken By Design" with "DRM" in Helvetica inside the circle.

    Seriously. The Hollywood mafia has gone too far (they're the ones pushing the games industry as well. They use the games as tests for "how far can we go on movies"). Especially since the reason the movie studios set down in LA, was to avoid paying royalties to Edison over his invention... (Yup, Hollywood was founded on license violations)

    //Svein
     

  11. Svein_Skogen

    Svein_Skogen Maha Guru

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    Except for the fact that the one selling the used game, is likely to use what he god back as part of the down-payment on the next game.

    //Svein
     
  12. ElementalDragon

    ElementalDragon Ancient Guru

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    ..... uh huh.... so let me try to figure out what you're trying to say logically.

    Game store sells new game..... both game store and developer get some money.
    Game store accepts trade in of same game... gives customer next to nothing, and charges nearly full retail price.
    Game store sells pre-owned game..... keeps 100% of the money made from that game.

    Game store's earnings for a single PS3 game trade-in, assuming developers get half = ~$85 (assuming the game was resold for $55 rather than the $60 new retail copy)
    Developer's earnings on said game purchase = ~$30

    ....... you see the point here? And if that's actually the case... which mind you that's only a scenario I imagined in my head.... that's only for a single game sale. So.... if you take that slightly further.....

    Same game, sold to 5 people, traded in, and sold again to 5 more people

    Game Store = ~$150 from the original sale + ~$275 from the resale's = ~$425
    developer = ~$150

    Yes... i know, the game store gives money back to the consumer on every trade in. So if you want to take that route, even though they more than make up for it with each game they sell, knock the $150 profit off from the original sale.... they're still making what.... like 83% more money than the people who made/published the game?
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2010
  13. Zapmaster

    Zapmaster Sherlock Guru

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    But the same deal applies to anything from books to cars, and none of those companies are up in arms about it. If video game publishers can't survive with consumers right to sell what they buy, then they should simply get out of business of publishing games, or restructure, simple as that.
     
  14. Norvekh

    Norvekh Ancient Guru

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    I'd say the publisher takes more issue from game stores undercutting new game sales through selling used games immediately after release. It's a situation where I can see both sides being implicated. New games, especially console games, are expensive at $50+ per unit. But, if a customer can wait a week for someone to return it and be able to purchase it for 10-15% less after less than a week of use? I can see a lot of people doing that. Even dragging it out to a few months and saving 10-15% is attractive. If new games sold for $35-45 rather than $50-70 I think we very likely would see publishers happier with more game sales and customers happier with more games for their money. Aside from that, yes, I can see how it could bother publishers to see used versions of their new products sold almost immediately after release in the same store.
     
  15. xXlAinXx

    xXlAinXx Active Member

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    You don't legally own the software aka from falsehood follows anything

    ElementalDragon: Unless you've stolen it, [1]the contract of sale is complete at the time of the transaction, and you legally own the physical layer through the "proof of receipt".
    A customers take [2]physical possession of the aforementioned object by acknowledge the price and by accredits the loan, and [3]any additional shipped terms not provided at the time of purchase does not constitute a legal contract.,
    in this evidence a customers is duo to no subject on the click wrap End User License Agreement contained within the software.


    This is the first and foremost reason to why, some greedy companies, push to operate outside the law at all cost: by shifting the market to where the customers is first obligated/subject to sing the EULA; to give up all the rights on the goods.


    [1]A sale is completed by the seller, the owner of the goods. It starts with consent (or agreement) to an acquisition or appropriation or request followed by the passing of title (property or ownership) in the item and the application and due settlement of a price, the obligation for which arises due to the seller's requirement to pass ownership, being a price she is happy to part with ownership of or any claim upon the item. The purchaser, though a party to the sale, does not execute the sale, only the seller does that. To be precise the sale completes prior to the payment and gives rise to the obligation of payment. If the seller completes the first two above stages (consent and passing ownership) of the sale prior to settlement of the price the sale is still valid and gives rise to an obligation to pay.

    [2]To acquire property one can purchase it with money, trade it for other property, receive it as a gift, steal it, find it, make it or homestead it. One can transfer or lose ownership of property by selling it for money, exchanging it for other property, giving it as a gift, being robbed of it, misplacing it, or having it stripped from one's ownership through legal means such as eviction, foreclosure and seizure.

    [3]Ownership is self-propagating in that if an object is owned by someone, any additional goods produced by using that object will also be owned by the same person. If one finds an object, one can legitimately take ownership of that object as long as no one claims to have previously lost that object.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2010

  16. cerebus23

    cerebus23 Ancient Guru

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    This if there was ANY sort of precident, for this stuff, but there isn't, no other thing you buy is treated like you have no ownership over it like pc video games, used cars, houses, clothing, etc noone in any other industry is screaming bloody murder if their products are sold second hand for a drastically reduced value, or hold onto it for 20 plus years and hope you get lucky and its worth a billion dollars, you do not owe the parent company jack squat.

    Video game and movies have gutted the meaning of the fair use doctrine, you know that thing that used to mean if you bought something that could be copied your right to basically copy it for personal use was held up.

    But then these big corporations got together and decided they did not like fair use, basically saying what you bought was not actually owned by you in any way shape or form, and now they are expanding ever onward, now they are saying that becasue you do not own the games you buy, and the retailers that buy them back do not own the games they buy back that now they are entitled to resale profits?

    I wish i knew the color of the sky in these companies worlds, it must be a magical mystical place filled with unending greed and stomping over consumers rights with wild abandon. Not that as a pc game mostly do our have have much of any resale value with drm and garbage already because they decided long ago we are not entitled to own what we buy.
     
  17. Laykun

    Laykun Ancient Guru

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    I think a more appropriate comparison here would be reselling a book or a movie. As the concern here is the licensing and distribution of intellectual property. To be honest, games, movies and books are all about the story and their biggest sales are made within the first week/month of the product launch (which are usually situated around public holidays/shopping seasons like christmas), which I very much doubt many people are able to buy second hand. This makes the argument of lost sales through second hand purchases redundant as the ratio of sales between new and second-hand is very much in favour of new.

    A lot of games also have time value as a lot of consumers tend to value visual appeal as well as gameplay, with games losing a lot of their visual appeal within their first year of release.

    The intentions of the game companies are rather transparent in this case as it is quite obvious this is simply motivated by greed, and could also be considered immoral due to it's discouragement of re-use (recycling), perpetuating the growing problem of e-waste. The only thing that's happening here is that game companies want more price control, without second hand games 'new' games can stay pricier for longer without competition as the consumer is forced to buy new, I just hope there's enough backlash to discourage this behaviour because as soon as one industry does it, the others will follow.
     
  18. THE RESELLER

    THE RESELLER New Member

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    91LudeSiT: understand the facts and the legalities of what you are blurting out!

    I saw this thread on pre-owned/piracy and due to the closeness of the subject to my own business, I started reading the comments...and I have to say that it never fails to irritate me when people :)bang: '91LudeSiT' :biggun:) broadcast their opinions as if they know what they are talking about. At least 'Liranan' appears to have a good understanding of whats going on here...

    Pre-owned / secondary markets (of perpetual products) work on the basic principle of 'exhaustion', which means that software manufacturers hold NO legal rights and title to the software after it has been sold. The software / game and the licence are separate assets. It may be called a software 'licence', but it is not 'licensing' a piece of software or a game when it is sold outright to a customer (this only ocurs when a software or game is rented / subscription). The software manufacturer still owns the copyright, but the customer can do what it wants with the software or game as long as it does not copy / re-distribute.

    This is not my 'opinion' - it is legally backed up by a 100 year old law known as the 'First Sale Doctrine' (to the Americans out there) or 'Exhaustion Rule' (to the Europeans). Furthermore, there are Competiton laws in UK, EU and in America preventing the software manufacturers from putting a halt to the trade of secondary software licences and games.
     
  19. honkeykrakker

    honkeykrakker Master Guru

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    Please do not reply to this if you are under the age, or if you have no clue how to buy a house or a car.


    People are funny. You do not "own" anything, not even your life. When you can learn that, then you can enjoy your Government's life that they let you live.

    For the guy talking about the House on Page 1:... You do not "own" it ever, nor the land that it is built on. It is and always will be the property of your government.

    Same thing with a car. You never "own" it. To "own" something would mean that you could do with it as you please, because YOU "own" it.

    So, keep going about your Government's life thinking you own stuff that you bought. They will keep laughing at you as they take what they want when they want to.
     
  20. Chock

    Chock Ancient Guru

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    actualy its bull****. if a game is so limited that it has only singleplayer, publishers did a bad job bringing it to enough people.

    dont blame people trying to sell something if they dont like it. if i buy a game that i totaly dislike and i have the chance to sell it again, i would do it any day. and i must admit i bought some things i realy didnt play that much. like empire total war and gta4. if i had the chance to return them or resell them i would instantly do so. unfortunatly i got ****ed over when i bought them via steam :)
     

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