‘Pre-owned a bigger problem than piracy’

Discussion in 'Games, Gaming & Game-demos' started by Liranan, May 14, 2010.

  1. Palerider

    Palerider Ancient Guru

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    I think EA is trying to become like Steam.It's all leading to d'loadable content, linked to an account.
    EA, you'll never be as good as Steam because you've shown customer satisfaction is your last priority- just go away!
     
  2. Jonnyboy

    Jonnyboy Ancient Guru

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    games these days are also a lot different then 10 years ago dude they aren't like they used to.
     
  3. Sprecker

    Sprecker Ancient Guru

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    If someone buys a used game the game has already been purchaced from the publisher. It's not like another copy is created. If that is the case, it is then called piracy.
    I agree that a change is needed in the way the business model works. Anyone (with reasonable income) can pirate a game. It wasn't the case 20-30 years ago when video games first came out. In the days of Nintendo's NES there was no way I could get pirated games. Now? In about 2 minutes I can have access to every PC game released in the last 10 years. Change is needed if we are going to be able to have anything worth playing.
    Do I agree with this line of action or any other that keeps punishing paying customers and using "It's _____ to blame." While they shovel out rehashes and copy cat formulas expecting us to play Doom/ Quake/ UT/ CS in higher res with better textures, more poly's and giving it some "bad ass" name that forces you to think that you might actually be doing more than moving a crosshair around the screen and pushing the same buttons you were 10 years ago? No I do not. Sure the colours are, well, there's more of them on the screen and sure the animations have gone leeps and bounds over what was available 10 years ago. But seriously. Is that worth $60 every time I want something new to ppoint my crosshair at? Sometimes it is. Sometimes I want to commit myself for spending a **** load on a PC so I can be told that the industry is being raped by poeple who only want to steal something new to point a crosshair at and the only way that they can stop them is, well, they can't. So ther rest of us "good" people who buy their "colourful moving firing ranges for the lazy" for the $60 get the royal shaft. Even when the developers remove features and take rediculous amounts of time to make a game they blame the cunning masterminds of these "pirates" because their game sux. If the game is fun and even offers one thing another game doesn't I will buy it.
    Now they are going after people who are actually paying???. What the hell is wrong with them? Seriously. They are killing the industry. It's far from dead, I know, but they seem to all want a new career because it seems they no longer want to make money from this one.
    I don't buy used, I don't rent and I can't be arsed to pirate. I do however demo. I think they are the only way PC games have a chance of getting sold for $60. I try. I like. I buy. I don't like. I don't buy. Simple. Is creating a demo hard? If you're going to spend 5 years developing a game one would think you were aware of the "demo" and you were prepared to let the customer try it. Car dealers do this and their products are way more expensive than games.
    That said. Don't be a greedy f'n tard and think making someone who would probably buy your game as opposed to pirate it pay to try your DEMO!!! News flash!! People are going to pirate the F'n thing if you do that and we are back to square one!!!! WTF!!!
    Now to just keep the paying people down, they are going to make it a "new copy only" industry??? Are they mad? Do they seriously hate making money and want to keep creativity to a minimum to reduce the losses that this F***'n brilliant idea will no doubt cause????

    EA "Hey everyone!! Try my soup!! It's super awesome!!Only $60 a bowl."

    Paying customer "Can I try a little bit first?"

    EA "No."

    Paying customer "How do I know it's any good?"

    EA "I just said it was super awesome. What more do you need?"

    Paying customer "Proof. It's gonna cost me some money so I want to at least have a taste of it first."

    EA "Well if I do that you may get full and not want any more. Then I just lost a sale. Here you can look at a picture of it."

    Paying customer "How is that going to help me want your soup? NVM. I just lost my appetite"

    Another Customer " Hey, you can have the rest of my soup for $10. It's pretty good too. I'm just full now."

    Paying customer "OK. That's cool. *SLURP* MMMM it is good. Wow EA, you do make good soup."

    EA "Thanks. That'll be $20 or I call the cops and say you stole it."

    Paying customer "!?!?!"

    BOOO! I SAY BOOOO!
    Sorry for the long post but what is wrong with people when they get into a board room and start talking? Does money, a suit and a tabe with co-workers around it instantly make you a f***'n ass hat?

    PS.
    Liranan, comparing a video game licence to a house is simply retarded. Why not compare DRM restriction to being choked to death (I am sure someone has).
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2010
  4. buddyfriendo

    buddyfriendo Ancient Guru

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    Did I say they where? No. Obviously you didn't consider that game sales would most likely make up for the lower MSRP and then some, lower msrp=bigger profit. Steam is a perfect example, when they put a game on sale like L4D2 for $30 rather than $50 people will jump on it like crazy, I sure did.
     

  5. Palerider

    Palerider Ancient Guru

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    The OP used cars as an example.That's perfect.
    Say you buy a 65 mustang from a private owner.Is Ford making a profit? No.
    How can anyone who supports this be against used games? It's the same thing.The ULA saying it's not your software isn't any more valid than Ford saying it's not your motor, you just pay to use it.
    We don't hold copyrights to the games, but we pay for the games, and they are ours to do as we wish-including reselling them.
     
  6. 91LudeSiT

    91LudeSiT Master Guru

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    You guys don't seem to understand how software licenses work. Software(games in this case) is so precious, that you may only purchase a temporary license to view the software, which can be revoked at anytime without reason, and is non transferable. You really should try reading the licensing agreements sometimes. Technically even though the disc is in your possession you don't own it, it still belongs to the software company.

    On another note, I am a casual gamer and dont have huge amounts of time for games. As I am usually short on cash and only play console games I usually grab things from the used pile or the bargin bin. I don't play the multiplayer ever, so the extra cost for multiplayer would be negligible for me. However a complete ban on the sales of used games would hurt my bargin hunting abilities, but only slightly.
     
  7. Liranan

    Liranan Ancient Guru

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    The only reason it's retarded is because you believe the propaganda and the lies you're fed by these companies. People do not understand that physical and digital medium/items are the same things and the same laws should be applied. And what I wrote about them doing in your house is exactly what they're doing with software. The fact that so many people are eagerly willing to give up their rights is retarded.

    EULA's hold no value in any country. Anyone can write an EULA and put whatever they want in it, doesn't mean that you have to hand over your kidney and first born just because an EULA says so.

    Common sense is nowhere to be found, while people greedily gobble up lies.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2010
  8. ElementalDragon

    ElementalDragon Ancient Guru

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    Uuh... to an extent, EULA's are viable. Look at World of Warcraft. It installs a tiny piece of software that monitors the active processes on your computer to check for any known cheating utilities, and reports this data back to Blizzard. Can you sue them for invasion of privacy? No. You agree to such action in the EULA.

    I'm not sure if people aren't seeing the sense behind the statement that pre-owned games are a bigger problem than piracy.... but i don't see how anybody can't.... at least vaguely, anyway. Yes, while with piracy, one person buys the game and copies it for tons of people.... but with pre-owned.... someone buys it (royalties to the developer).... plays it, trades it in (money from store back into pocket for another game), and that store sells it at a discounted price.... keeping all the money from the game.

    If you want a better comparison.... It'd be like yoinking a case of those free trial discs you see at places like Best Buy and such for software, and selling them for $5 a piece. Stores are making a huge profit on something that's not theirs.
     
  9. Liranan

    Liranan Ancient Guru

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    If you want a perfect comparison... It'd be like you saying that the sale of second hand TV's should be banned because manufacturers aren't making any money off it.

    While we assume an EULA is lawful it's not. They can't put an EULA before a judge because different countries have differernt laws and an EULA, as a whole, is illigal. Some aspects of it can be seen as legal but that's case and location dependent.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2010
  10. ElementalDragon

    ElementalDragon Ancient Guru

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    How exactly would sale of a second hand TV be similar in any way, shape, or form? Last i checked, there's nothing saying you're only paying for the ability to use the TV, and it can be reposessed at any time without prior warning. Plus, you're paying for the HARDWARE for the TV. For that to be a viable comparison, you'd have to live in some fantasy world where the price you pay for a game is only the price of the disc itself. Pretty sure building TV's is much cheaper than developing games.
     

  11. Liranan

    Liranan Ancient Guru

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    Really? Please provide proof that the R&D that went into developing OLEDs didn't reach the tens of millions of USD and Euro's. While you're at it please provide proof that developing new items doesn't cost a lot of money, considering car manufacturers buy super computers to develop their products. Also explain what the difference is between a CD/DVD and a TV.

    From what I understand you're saying that you're paying for the hardware of the game, the medium, but not the right to use the software. So, you're paying for the hardware of the TV but not the right to turn it on (use it).
     
  12. Norvekh

    Norvekh Ancient Guru

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    What is legal is that you never own the software. Ever. The software publisher and/or developer retain all rights unless they otherwise waive those rights to the end user. This is why you have free SDKs for the creation of new content but the games themselves are still wholly by-cost only. Comparing software licensing to housing is, frankly, moronic at best. For one thing, most people these days don't own their homes in the first place. They have borrowed money in the form of a loan to some form of lending institution with the written contract that the person or persons taking on the loan will pay it back in some predetermined fashion as described within the loan. Until that loan is paid in full that house is not the home owner's house but the banking institution's property. Until it is paid in full the bank is allowing you to use the home in full.

    If you really want to compare real estate legalities to software licensing the best comparison is probably with renting. In both cases you never own what you are using. In both you can have your rights of use revoked (eviction or license revoked and software disabled for instance). In both cases you can purchase as much as you want but you will never own and no matter how much you pay it will never count towards any sort of purchase of the product, unlike a lease. While the terms of licensing agreements can be debated as to their legality, the base of the agreement, that you never own the content is hard and fast law. You cannot modify the code, reverse-engineer it, or redistribute it. DRM is of questionable legal stance as it really depends on the court and what precedent they go by as to how that particular judge determines how legally binding circumventing the DRM is. That is to say, ripping a DVD with DRM is illegal not because you are making the backup, but because of the DRM. On the other hand a DVD without DRM is completely legal to rip. This varies from country to country of course but that is US law. I know in some European countries that activity has been determined to not be illegal as the DRM prevents fair use of the product, in this case allowing the user their backup copy.

    As for used games, I have purchased some used console games in the past, in every case a game which cannot be purchased new. I have also sold console games though found the profit to me was so minuscule that it wasn't worth it to me to sell it versus keep it on the off chance I would use it again. For other's they have different views and that's fine. Claiming used game sales is worse than piracy is just asinine though. I can understand the annoyance by a publisher in having a game which is currently produced being sold used at heavy discounts as I can certainly accept that eats into at least some of their unit sales. How much it eats up is murky at best though. On the other hand, all consumer non-durable goods end up used whether it's a game, a movie, or an iPod and that shouldn't be stopped because it is integral to society to have the ability to sell used products. A caveat though is that if the end user wishes to waive one's rights, as in a distribution service such as Steam, that should also not be prevented as it is a user's choice as to whether or not they will support such a system.
     
  13. Liranan

    Liranan Ancient Guru

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    I await with glee the proof that this is indeed legislation, because it certainly isn't in China and most of the world.

    China has very lax copyright laws, stating that once something has been created it belongs to the 'people' and not solely to the creator him/her/itself. But that is not the discussion at hand.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2010
  14. Zapmaster

    Zapmaster Sherlock Guru

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    EULA's are modified to suit laws in different regions, so they are valid and legal. But yes, you are right, they got plenty of stuff that wouldn't hold up in anywhere. Anyway, being forbiden to resell your license is ridiculous.

    And, if reselling is such a big deal, then I guess stores that sell used games could give a small % of their used games sales to publishers. But personally I think it's all a load of bull, if publishers aren't making enough money, they should re-evalute their business models, costs of game development ,and adopt. Instead of just keeping up with incessant whining, if you can't make enough money doing something, then get out and do something else.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2010
  15. Raiasokura

    Raiasokura Master Guru

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    I disagree that preowned is a bigger issue than piracy as usally the money that is paid for a pre owned game, 90% of the timewill go towards another game. I doubt its affecting the industry as much as piracy is and seems a little over exagerated to me or has been taken way out of proportion.

    the fact is though, companies have taken steps so you keep the game anyway, such as once its on your steam account its difficult to sell it on.
     

  16. Skadaage

    Skadaage Member

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    Nothing like a soup analogy to get my blood boiling!!
    EA have always been bastards, it's activision i'm worried about!
     
  17. phill1978

    phill1978 Master Guru

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    oh most definatley, in fact the human condition takes rather well to this. Even a normal office job it happens and of course exchange suits for uniforms and its the same idea

    exchange suits for religious robes.. exact same...


    when there is nobody to argue back in the company and lets face it most are YES men/women for fear of being sacked or demoted due to the need to have money to buy food and compete against 6 billion other human inhabitens on earth, you can kind of understand why
     
  18. phill1978

    phill1978 Master Guru

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    was looking at this image of this tosser grinning driving around in a Ferrari to his penthouse, having a sweet life.

    [​IMG]

    ^ corporate twat


    whilst the staff at my local blockbusters on minimum wage try to make ends meet as sales drop off, the only reason they are still in business in my local town is due to the games trade and dvd rental of which rental is now dropping due to schemes like 'love film' and digital downloads.

    [​IMG]

    500 stores in the US closed.

    in my town jobs are hard to find, people still have families to feed and the store is just about surviving..

    wonder if he will think about the thousands of jobs lost through this whilst chewing into a nice steak??
     
  19. Sprecker

    Sprecker Ancient Guru

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    They are doing this very change because of people like you with over blown entiitlement issues. You don't have any right to sell their program. Period. Just like you can't sell your licence to drive a car. You can sell your car but not the licence. RTM.

    That said, it's not the exact same thing. When you sell your copy of the game, it is assumed that will you no longer have it. So it doesn't affect the company at all. 100000 copies were bought from the company 100000 are being used. It shouldn't matter who is using them. The licences are payed for. The company recieved their money. End of story.
    The only thing is that the used version is the exact same thing as a new version it doesn`t recieve wear from use. It is a code or a signal and it`s digital merits are all there even if it is used by someone constantly for years. When someone buys it they ge the exact same digital experience as they would if it were new. This is unlike a car or a house as those thing depreciate becasue of wear and tear from direct use intended by the manufacturer. Digital media has not direct wear and tear from it`s intended use. Froim the manufactuer/developer side it is the same product as new and should be charged the same.
    I don't agree with this at all. Say a digital licence was more like renting a house. I pay for the whole year in advance. I then decide to buy another house and rent out the house to my freind until the lease is up. Should I be compensating the home owner? I would inform them that I have done this because it is a house. I would not expect them to want to recieve any money as I already payed for the lease.
    With this "new" way of thinking about used games and that we will be buyers of non transferable licences, they really need to lower prices. $60 to rent a game is kind of stupid.
     
  20. Sprecker

    Sprecker Ancient Guru

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    :) It was a rhetorical question. :D
     

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