PC Gamers At A Audio Disadvantage Against Console: Surround Sound vs Positional Audio

Discussion in 'Soundcards, Speakers HiFI & File formats' started by Eastcoasthandle, Jun 12, 2021.

  1. Radical_53

    Radical_53 Ancient Guru

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    No, not "any". It's never "any".

    So, I saw those snippets and I can't stand the guy talking, maybe you can sum this up: Where does the other solution get the more precise audio from (data source), and how does it present it? It's still a binaural headset, right?
     
  2. Eastcoasthandle

    Eastcoasthandle Guest

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    It's all there in the links provided in my prior post. It is up to you whether or not you can stomach listening to somebody that you hate.
     
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  3. Radical_53

    Radical_53 Ancient Guru

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    Ok, fine. Well, then I don't care really. "Some random Youtube guy" , great find.
     
  4. WhiteLightning

    WhiteLightning Don Illuminati Staff Member

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    You will never be able to use positional audio, if windows drivers + sofware is not loaded. While you think the application is not open, there are some things running in the background.
    It saves the configuration, but that's about it.

    You can have positional audio with every headset or earplugs you want. It is all software solution , there is no hardware for that. it does not exist.
     

  5. Trunks0

    Trunks0 Maha Guru

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    I think the majority of what the guy Eastcoasthandle posted is talking about... could maybe be summed up in them being open back to a degree. Part of the advantage to closed back style headphones is the audio being completely isolated from each other and that does lead to better channel separation. Alternatively, it could just be that the soundstage of the 560's doesn't work well for this, even though their cousin headphone the 6XX is heavily recommended. I haven't had positional issues with my HiFiman HE-5XX's, but they are a very different style of open back and are known for an almost holographic soundstage with good positional audio. Makes me want to do some testing though with a pair of closed backs :D
     
  6. Eastcoasthandle

    Eastcoasthandle Guest

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    The Morbius/Orbit S line of headphones do have it in hardware. Again, I can adjust the settings at desktop, save it to hardware and close/exit or uninstall the application for it. And, I am sure that I've posted about this before. It's how the headphones work. I've checked the task manager and didn't find anything out of the norm.


    I disagree. I've tried both and neither did the job to what I'm noticing now. Sounds stage of a headphones does not equal positional audio of footsteps from an enemy. Although it does help aid in how the footsteps sound and some distance. This is apples to oranges comparison. One allows you to know where the enemy is. The other tells you some characteristic of the footsteps 8n my observation. When they are combined they allow you to hear the footstep and tell you what they are stepping on and at times allow you to horizontal direction. But doesn't pinpoint it.

    But that youtuber hit it on the nail. You can hear the footsteps but you don't know where exactly it's coming from. Some traditional headphones can give you a general idea, surround sound, while others do not. But that's not positional audio.

    IMO, I believe the later is what you are experiencing based on your response. The sound stage of some headphones can allow you certain audio cues to know when footsteps are on wood vs dirt/grass for example while providing you some level of direction that can give you the audio cue necessary to know where to look based on where you are on the map. But again that's not pinpoint accuracy.

    Edit:
    That YT'er mentioned something worth noting that I didn't mention in this thread. There is a notable difference in those traditional headphones regarding what you hear in vertical vs horizontal audio. And as he stated you may get a general idea of where an enemy might be horizontal from you but you will find it difficult if not impossible to know the positional audio of an enemy that is vertical from you. And I too believe that's a real phenomenon.

    Even though to me, if I cannot pinpoint the audio position of an enemy horizontally I gave it equal weight of it vertically. When in fact vertically can be much worst on traditional headphones. And we haven't gotten into 360 degree yet. And no, I'm not talking about some surround sound audio clip. I'm referring to playing competitively in COD.

    For example (MW2019 or Cold war); the sound stage of your headphones can let you know that someone is making noise at the staircase. You are at the top of the staircase. You won't know when the enemy is moving from the bottom, mid and top (or from mid back down) of the staircase because there is no audio pinpoint accuracy. But you will hear continued footsteps indicating it. With the possibility of them getting louder. Just surround sound with a certain sound stage for example. You only know what the sound of the steps are in the staircase. But you won't be able to track them with your crosshair. This has been my experience.

    However, I can with the morbius, orbit s, etc as found in the op. And that is the difference. That is why I created this thread. And that is why Gamers on console get better position audio. This isn't new. Console players have been able to do this for years.

    This is what makes traditional headphones a huge deal breaker for me.

    Now, I know exactly where they are on the staircase. I can decide if I want to surprise them head on. Wait from them to run past me as I hide. Or jump behind them on the staircase to shot from behind. And, do this consistently in MW/CW/etc.

    That's the biggest difference using these headphones. Headphones I would never use for music nor movies. As they are atrocious for that based on how I have them setup.

    It's all about finding the right tool for the right job. Traditional headphones are great for music and movies. While these are great for 1st person shooter games offering high fidelity audio cues for footsteps, etc.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2022
  7. Trunks0

    Trunks0 Maha Guru

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    erhm well that comes down to the sound engine of a game. If the games sound engine support HRTF, OpenAL etc to allow for proper 3D audio... then headphones can rockzor your boxzors. If the game doesn't have proper 3D audio, then you have to rely on your hardware/software to do things like render the multi-channel into 3D-esc audio. Like SBX, Dolby Headphone etc etc.

    But without a 3D audio engine... it's not really 3D audio. It will not for instance have any actual verticality to the audio. That's just reality as the games audio engine has no concept of "audio should go to above or below " short of something like atmos. You can do things like pan your view around to force audio to pan between channels though(the engine will have a concept of your view point looking at the audio). This is a classical method to pin-point audio and it's why multi-channel can be helpful(you can hear the audio pan around channels). The YTer mentions doing this, but still not hearing separation on the audio channels on 560S. That's why I mentioned the open-back being a potential issue, as other things causing cross-talk like that seem unlikely.

    *late edit* man that was a long winded way to explain myself lol
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2022
  8. Mineria

    Mineria Ancient Guru

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    Try to unplug the USB, it's not in the headphone itself but sound chip and software, so WhiteLightning stands correct.
    As long as the drivers themself cover the spectrum without coloring to much of the frequency spectrum that the chip and software throws at them it will work regardless.
    Some cans might need some additional EQ to get the same result when spatial audio is thrown at them to make positional detection more accurate.

    The real issue we have with both console as PC gaming is lack of automatic switching between spatial methods for games that got propper implementations for them and switching to all around solutions by choice for games that don't have any specific or bad implementation for specific spatial methods.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2022
  9. Eastcoasthandle

    Eastcoasthandle Guest

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    Yes, I understand where you are coming from. These newer games are using Dolby Atmos. So the capability is there. At least that is what I am exampling.
    https://www.dolby.com/experience/games/#gref

    There are disadvantages of having an open back but none I have found that would address positional audio of footsteps, etc.
     
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  10. Trunks0

    Trunks0 Maha Guru

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    Nah I don't think open back has any inherent advantage for helping a person with position audio cues at all. But headphones with a good frequency response and good detail retrieval can help. Ensure those nice soft, distant little foot slaps are audible :D

    But anyway for positional audio, I don't think consoles have a real advantage. It's not like they are rocking better headphone modes than PC(although Sony has been teasing it). Plus on PC we can use all sorts of various software solutions (SBX, DolbyHeadphone, WaveNX etc etc etc) and we still have games with OpenAL, which allows for real 3D audio.

    *late edit*
    Look at what this game is doing with it's 3D audio.



    AAaahhh, I would KILL for more games to have audio like this lol
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2022
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  11. Eastcoasthandle

    Eastcoasthandle Guest

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    I remember reading about that a while back. If I am not mistaken it was just before next gen consoles were released. Would be nice to see this implemented one day.
     
  12. Trunks0

    Trunks0 Maha Guru

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    It is implemented on Android(and maybe iOS) with some of their higher end headphones/earbuds (Like the various XM3 & XM4 series stuff) . Letting you take pictures of your ears and it adapting the sound accordingly. Allowing for some nice 3D music... but nothing for gaming yet I think :(
     
  13. Valken

    Valken Ancient Guru

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    I think Aureal 3D did it first and there were others trying to create it within headphone tech but many have gone bankrupted (Ossic) or have it in limited scope such as consoles only (AMD TruAudio3D).

    I do not mind a HW or SW DSP solution via USB nowadays. I'm glad WaveNX exists and does a good job but of course it can always be way better.
     
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  14. Trunks0

    Trunks0 Maha Guru

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    Yes, A3D amazing stuff. It would calculate audio reflections based on the actual game environment. At least partially leading to it's stunningly accurate 3D audio :)
     
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  15. Eastcoasthandle

    Eastcoasthandle Guest

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    Looks like modern warfare II will be released later this year. From my observation mw2019 had the best positional audio. While Vanguard had the worst. In Vanguard they only took the time to implement it well in air assets.
     

  16. TimmyP

    TimmyP Guest

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    The irony of this thread.
     
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  17. Mineria

    Mineria Ancient Guru

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    Even works with Apple Music via Apple TV and an older 5.1 Surround amp without Dolby Atmos.
    Try Greta Van Fleet's latest album as an example for it.
     
  18. Chade

    Chade Member Guru

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    His comparison is flawed from the start. He's using two completely different DACS and positional audio solutions to test the headphones, on the Arctis he's using the DAC that comes with it and so will be using their software with it's 3D Audio solution and the on the Sennheisers he's using a SoundblasterX G6 and so using a completely different positional audio software, he didn't even bother to try and setup the G6 correctly, because he doesn't have first idea how to and so just dismisses it and calls it useless and disables it, which means he's not even using positional audio anymore, so of course he can't pinpoint audio cues, he disabled it in the software. To compare these headphones correctly he should not install any of the software that comes with them, then disable audio enhancements in the Windows sound settings to ensure no extra signal processing is taking place via the software/drivers, and finally use the same positional audio solution, like WavesNX, on both headphones while powering them using the same DAC.

    Also, he's using what is considered one of the best gaming headphones you can get, the Steelseries Arctis Pro along with the included DAC, which means he's likely using DTS HeadphoneX 2.0, and these are actually more expensive than the Sennheiser HD560s he's got there. Then there's the actual specs of the headphones themselves. The Arctis has a frequency response range of 10Hz to 40kHz, whilst the Sennheiser is 6 Hz to 38 kHz, which would mean that the Arctis should be better at reproducing sounds on the high end of the spectrum, like footsteps, while the Sennheisers will have better bass reproduction on the low end. Not to mention the Arctis Pro will be factory configured to reproduce gaming sound better, while the 560s are configured to play music optimally.

    EDIT:
    So yea, his comparison is junk, he's not just comparing apples and oranges, he's comparing apples and hammers. The guy is absolutely clueless.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2022
  19. Chastity

    Chastity Ancient Guru

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    This would only make a difference to dogs and bats. Human hearing maxes out at 20KHz, and goes down with age.
     
  20. Chade

    Chade Member Guru

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    Yes, those specific frequencies over 20kHz and those under 20Hz are not audible, but the idea is that a greater frequency range ensures less distortion, noise and better clarity. A more accurate reproduction of the sounds you can hear, this is why we have gear that goes beyond the limitations.
     
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