RTX 3060 Ti or Denon AVR-S960h?: 10-bit color issue

Discussion in 'The HTPC, HDTV & Ultra High Definition section' started by Mda400, Dec 27, 2020.

  1. Mda400

    Mda400 Maha Guru

    Messages:
    1,089
    Likes Received:
    200
    GPU:
    4070Ti 3GHz/24GHz
    At this point, you would seem to be correct. But if they figured to 'wash their hands' of the issue and I can still reproduce it, they didn't do a very good job of pulling the blinders over my eyes. It's false advertisement at this point until they find a fix.

    Unless I were to disable the internal speakers of the display when the PC is directly connected to it, the input latency is actually lower to me when using the AVR to the TV's HDMI ARC port which disables the internal TV speakers anyways. Even using 8-bit over 10-bit to me, produces lower input latency.

    I have the AVR set to Pure Direct mode, which bypasses all signal (audio and video) processing.

    I have used the 2 seperate cable method in the past from the PC and it caused some issues with certain programs and the different display settings between the 2 connections, which is why i have been waiting for HDMI to support 4k above 60hz full chroma RGB through one connection.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2021
  2. PPC

    PPC Master Guru

    Messages:
    359
    Likes Received:
    191
    GPU:
    3070
    There is no way a source->repeater(AVR)->display will result in less latency than source->display, no way whatsoever, that is just not possible no matter on any "pure direct" modes you are using or eliminating processing. Even active adapters will add to latency, cable length too. Is it much latency? No, most likely not. Is it going to "matter", that purely depends on you and your needs. This is physics and there is no way around it.

    I also use AVR for sound output from PC with 2 cable setup since my Onkyo also has issues with passthru and this is how its set up. There is a HDMI 2.1 port from GPU with a certified cable to HDMI 2.1 port on the tv and it does 4k/120/10bit flawlessly. It also carries sound to the TV speakers which are set as default sound device in windows when i dont need AVR full on sound (AVR turned off). Another cable is actually DP->HDMI 1.4 passive cable adapter which is there just for sound so it doesnt need to be anything special, it goes from DP on GPU to HDMI on AVR. When i turn on the AVR it will be detected by windows as a separate monitor and automatically become the default sound device so the sound will only go thru AVR at this point while video goes thru both. If the TV is set as default display device (as it is) this transition (turning on AVR) is seamless. When AVR is turned off, again the TV becomes default sound device and sound only plays thru it, no need to manually do anything.

    The only issue i have is if it happens so that i turn off the TV first then AVR becomes default display device and since its lower resolution (1080p bound since HDMI 1.4) it might f-up the desktop windows sizes etc. but in time i learned not to do so. Also its not that big of a deal to resize em, while it is a bother, YMMV. I do not watch classical TV (cable box) so there is 0 need for me to transfer anything over ARC/eARC from the TV to AVR but if i wanted to do so i'd just use another cable and plug it into another channel on AVR, i tried this for experimentation and it worked. If you have a console then you might want this, i hate consoles from bottom of my heart so... yeah. Last time i turned on the cable box was when the epidemic started to hear an announcement about curfew and i didnt really need AVR sound for that. ;)

    Now back to the actual problem with the issue persisting. Sure, it is "false advertising" as you say but the best you'll get there is you'll get your money back for the AVR and go buy another which will have about the same issue (or a slightly different one) so youre borked one way or another. Only option is to "pray" that the issue is actually in the firmware and that it will be addressed later on with an update but if its an issue in the chipset then there is no hope. You could try another brand/model of AVR but in my experience they are all faulty in some way when you push it to the limit of the "spec", either cutting out, giving issues like yours, reseting resolution every single time you turn it on, etc... If you have the patience to connect everything, setup and test in return period you might do that, might get lucky with a certain model/brand, YMMV. But pressing the service to "fix" your unit will not do anything since they cant do it, they will replace your board X times and call it a day and ultimately will offer a refund so might as well save yourself the hassle and maybe try another model.

    What i personally would do is sit on that AVR until 8k/120 ones come out then go press the service/store/manufacturer for a refund since yours cant do what they say it should do and request a refund... when 8k/120 ones come out they most likely wont have problem with 4k/120/10bit but if at that point you want 8k/120... yeah. :D
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2021
  3. Mda400

    Mda400 Maha Guru

    Messages:
    1,089
    Likes Received:
    200
    GPU:
    4070Ti 3GHz/24GHz
    If I disable audio to the internal TV speakers (by putting it on Optical output or analog headphone jack for example), set any adjustments like audio delay to bypass the internal processing of the TV's sound processor, on the CX OLED and just have video to it directly from the GPU's HDMI 2.1 port, it has lesser delay to me than going through the AVR.

    But the point of this setup is to have great audio as well and that's why i still passthrough the AVR.

    I did it this way too, when i first tried 4K/60hz with a GTX 980 by HDMI 2.0 to an LG 4k TV (can't remember model, its at my father's house) and DVI to HDMI adapter to my old LG LHB326 sound system (since the receiver doesn't support HDMI 2.0 pass-through).

    I did not like the fact i had to re-size windows often due to the difference in display resolution between the two connections. I had troubles with certain programs defaulting to the connection that had sound active on it (which was usually the AVR). It was at that point i sighed and just waited 6 more years for this period to finally come around.

    I sometimes watch hulu, netflix, disney+ or amazon prime video with the Mrs. on the TV as well so I utilize multiple times a month, the ARC/eARC port from the TV to the AVR.

    It certainly looks that way right now and is probably what i'll be doing if nothing comes along within the remaining1 year of warranty this AVR has..

    At least it gives me 4k/120hz 8-bit RGB with VRR :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2021
  4. PPC

    PPC Master Guru

    Messages:
    359
    Likes Received:
    191
    GPU:
    3070
    Since i'm using this setup for as long as you have (since 2015.) i can tell you that problem was more pronounced back then, havent had a single app open on anything but a primary display for last couple of years, it has actually been addressed. Try the 2 cable approach again, see what happens, you might be surprised, it works way better now in that regard. Only if you turn off the tv and AVR becomes main (and only) display it will mess with resolution and windows sizes but then just dont do that. ;)
     

  5. bleejean

    bleejean Guest

    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    2
    GPU:
    RTX3080
    Hey Mda400, just came upon this thread again today after doing another Google search for this issue to see if any progress had been made. That sucks that you sent in your receiver and the problem still wasn't fixed. I have been using the two cable method PPC recommends all this time and it has been working fine for me but it is still annoying that I need to turn the TV and receiver off and on separately and that I paid for a cutting edge receiver but am not even using it's most notable feature!

    Since they are not doing anything for you I don't expect to have any luck sending mine in either. Maybe if I wait until near the very end of my warranty (2 years) I will get lucky and there will be a new model and I can convince Best Buy to let me exchange for the new one somehow.
     
    Mda400 likes this.
  6. Mda400

    Mda400 Maha Guru

    Messages:
    1,089
    Likes Received:
    200
    GPU:
    4070Ti 3GHz/24GHz
    Kind of what i'm hoping for too at this point.

    Onkyo and Pioneer also have 8k receivers out now, but only the Onkyo TX-NR5100 would be in my price range and it only carries 24gbps HDMI 2.1 ports looking at the manual. Yamaha hasn't received their HDMI 2.1 updates to their AVR's yet as far as I can tell.

    Going to see what Denon does in the next year before I try selling this for a unit that works with 10-bit RGB at 4k/120hz.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2021
  7. Ormy

    Ormy Active Member

    Messages:
    89
    Likes Received:
    48
    GPU:
    3080Ti 12GB
    If you have an eARC capable TV and AVR why not just use that? AVR doesn't need to be connected directly to PC at all and there will be no increase in latency from using video passthrough.

    I am in a similar situation, 3080Ti & LG CX so I want to make use of 4k120 4:4:4 with VRR that both are capable of. But my AVR is rather old, HDMI v1.3, so I'm forced the use the two cable method, there are a few annoyances but it works for the most part. If my AVR supported eARC, I'd just use that and not have the AVR connected to the PC at all, but it doesn't so I'm considering purchasing one of these: https://www.thenaudio.com/product/sharc-earc-audio-converter/

    Even if I had an AVR that promised full hdmi v2.1 spec compliance (as you do) I would not trust it to be genuinely compliant. You can pound your fists and moan at the manufacturers all you want but nothing will change, compliance will continue to be very unreliable because the number of people that actually care is such a tiny fraction of their customer base it would not be profitable to address the issue, so it will never be addressed.

    I agree with the general point, AVR passthrough will add significant latency regardless of any pure-direct mode or similar. But I feel I have to be pedantic and point out that cable length is NOT going to add significant latency. The latency added by a 25ft cable vs a 1ft cable is a few nanoseconds, i.e. completely insignificant compared to the total latency which is a few milliseconds (1 millisecond = 1 million nanoseconds). If you are being pedantic enough to include the latency of the cable itself then you also need to include the time the light takes to get from the screen to your eyes, which is again a few nanoseconds.
     
  8. Astyanax

    Astyanax Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    17,011
    Likes Received:
    7,353
    GPU:
    GTX 1080ti
    PC's have no actual support for ARC, or eARC being a PCM stream by default - it can work but its not ensured to work.
     
  9. Ormy

    Ormy Active Member

    Messages:
    89
    Likes Received:
    48
    GPU:
    3080Ti 12GB
    The PC doesn't need to support ARC/eARC. No offence but the fact you mentioned this implies you don't really get how eARC works?

    As long as it is properly supported by the TV and the AVR* then it will work. eARC spec includes passthrough of 8ch PCM from the source through the TV to the AVR. In particular, users have confirmed that this does indeed work with LG CX displays. So the only reason it wouldn't work for the OP is if the his TV and/or AVR are lying about their eARC compliance. Nothing at all to do with the PC. It would work using any PC/GPU that has HDMI out even if they were made before ARC even existed, assuming the TV and AVR are actually compliant.

    *not guaranteed they are compliant even if they claim to be, just like HDMI 2.1 compliance, but eARC is a much more mature technology so most of the devices that claim compliance are actually fully compliant unlike HDMI 2.1.
     
  10. Astyanax

    Astyanax Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    17,011
    Likes Received:
    7,353
    GPU:
    GTX 1080ti
    I know perfectly how both ARC methods work, and you're very mistaken because the display driver limits itself to the lowest possible capabilities of the device chain on Nvidia hardware, so for example you lose access to pcm multichannel techniques if one of the available devices is Stereo only (and the stereo device does not have the capability to disable its capability reporting, which many don't.

    eARC and ARC are only 100% functional on consoles which are dumb devices and take your user setting and ignores the capabilities of the device on the end of the chain.
     

  11. Ormy

    Ormy Active Member

    Messages:
    89
    Likes Received:
    48
    GPU:
    3080Ti 12GB
    Not sure what relevance that link has, in the first few lines the author clearly states his soundbar does NOT support eARC. Plain old ARC does not support Multichannel PCM, only PCM stereo and compressed (Dolby or DTS) 5.1. Therefore eARC is required for surround sound in modern games, ARC won't cut it, therefore this reddit link is irrelevant to the OPs issue.

    Also, why are you mentioning stereo devices? OP has a denon AVR and an LG CX, neither are stereo-only devices, so what is the relevance of mentioning stereo devices? If your system is stereo only then why would you even need eARC in the first place?

    I've successfully got eARC working using GPUs that were manufactured before ARC existed.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2022
  12. PPC

    PPC Master Guru

    Messages:
    359
    Likes Received:
    191
    GPU:
    3070
    Yeah, cable length was there just to illustrate the point that everything adds latency. :) I completely agree with everything you said.

    BTW your method of eARC use is not going to work for 5.1 output from a PC since Windows will not read the 5.1 capable AVR as connected (since it isnt) but will only read 2.0 capable TV and thus you wouldnt be able to set 5.1 channel setup in Windows audio settings. For stereo tho, works like a charm. With passthru capable players it also can work for video and transmit 5.1 since it transmits complete proprietary formats but PCM youll only get 2.0.

    EDIT: I see now @Astyanax already brought this up, didnt read the whole thread before i replied.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2022
  13. Ormy

    Ormy Active Member

    Messages:
    89
    Likes Received:
    48
    GPU:
    3080Ti 12GB
    Any TV that is fully compliant with eARC will either read the audio format capabilities of the AVR and present those to the upstream device (PC in this case), or the TV will just always present 7.1 capability to the PC. Many TVs that only have 2 speakers (regardless of eARC compatibility) will present 5.1 and/or 7.1 modes alongside the EDID and they process the rear channels into crappy 'virtual surround' like soundbars do. I'm afraid you and Astyanax are both mistaken on this issue.

    I cannot guarantee it will work for every TV but I can guarantee it will work for the OP as I have personally seen it working with LG CX TVs, and it will probably work on a majority of newer TVs by the main manufacturers.

    *As I have said previously, compliance can be spotty, even if a manufacturer claims compliance that isn't a guarantee. I know it works for the LG CX but even they have some minor quirks in their compliance. E.g. the TV will present 5.1 and 7.1 compatibility to the PC correctly, but if you output 5.1 from PC to TV, the TV will still send 7.1 to the AVR with two empty channels. 5.1 and 7.1 formats will still work fine, but if you wanted to use the AVR to upmix 5.1 to 7.1 it won't work.

    All the above is regarding 7.1 and 5.1 formats as that's what I have most experience, you both may be correct regarding Atmos, I have no idea if that would work or not.
     
  14. Astyanax

    Astyanax Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    17,011
    Likes Received:
    7,353
    GPU:
    GTX 1080ti
    You wish
     
    PPC likes this.
  15. PPC

    PPC Master Guru

    Messages:
    359
    Likes Received:
    191
    GPU:
    3070
    You have a CX now with 2 cables method, does it let you select 5.1 setup in windows audio when audio is played on the TV? If not then no, eARC wont change that and no the TV wont "present" the eARC connected AVR to Windows. If however CX does for some reason, which i doubt, has an option to be set as "5.1" in Windows audio on its own then sure, that would work i guess. This aint hard to do either, TV just needs to report that capability to Win, its only a matter of will TV manufacturers do it. I know Samsung models do not do this, maybe LG does but i doubt it. A plethora of USB headsets presents itself to Windows as "7.1" capable device and can be set as such in Windows audio despite the fact that headsets never can be anything but 2.0.

    If we are only talking video and proprietary formats like DD+, DTS, Atmos, etc. then you just need an audio passthru capable player on Windows with whatever audio settings selected it will send full DTS (or any other) proprietary format from PC to TV which will TV also passthru to AVR and AVR will decode it to the highest of its capabilities, that works. Games are all PCM audio, they will be 2.0 if the TV doesnt have "virtualised 5.1" reporting to Win.
     

  16. Ormy

    Ormy Active Member

    Messages:
    89
    Likes Received:
    48
    GPU:
    3080Ti 12GB
    The underlined parts of your post are where we are in agreement.

    For the benefit of this thread I re-tested this just now with an LG CX 55 and PC with 3080Ti connected via HDMI v2.1.

    Now admittedly it takes some fiddling with the settings. But after adjusting settings as below:

    Sound->sound out->select HDMI ARC or eARC (if present).

    Then under sound->additional settings-> do the following
    eARC to On
    digital sound out to Pass Through
    HDMI input format to Bitstream (not PCM)*

    *This setting is really counter-intuitive, wtf LG were thinking we may never know, but setting this to bitstream causes the display to flicker (HDMI re-handshake) and the below pictured sound output configuration becomes available.

    LG 7.1.jpg

    Yes it says atmos but games can still output 7.1 PCM in this output mode.

    I would be surprised if you couldn't get similar results with at least some of the high-end/flagship TVs of the last 2-3 years from other big manufacturers, even if it requires messing with settings that are far more obscure and unintuitive than they should be.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2022
  17. PPC

    PPC Master Guru

    Messages:
    359
    Likes Received:
    191
    GPU:
    3070
    I'll take your word on that Dolby Atmos plugin for Windows audio since i have not bought it and have no experience with it. I had an old Sound Blaster Titanium card that had DD+ and DTS encoding capability (which can actually be enabled on most integrated Realteks too but i digress). It could encode a Windows output 5.1 PCM into DD+ or DTS and send it out as such via SPDIF for decoding by an AVR or similar device. If that Windows audio plugin works like that (an encoder), then sure, that could possibly work but i remember reading that plugin function is different. From what i read its just a license plugin for Dolby Atmos to be played in Windows environment, tha app itself is called Dolby Access now, in other words i dont think it works the way you think it works.

    I have not tested this myself but since your "Finish" button is grayed out i can see that you havent either. I would double check your facts before deciding that this plugin is an encoder that will enable features as you described. From what i know for sure is that your CX is only reporting as a 2.0 device as expected.
     
  18. Ormy

    Ormy Active Member

    Messages:
    89
    Likes Received:
    48
    GPU:
    3080Ti 12GB
    I know exactly what you mean, many years ago I had a motherboard that could do this with the onboard sound, it would encode 5.1 PCM into DTS, the feature was called DTS connect and it was very useful, I used it to send DTS over S/PDIF optical to an AVR, this is in the pre-HDMI days. My friends in home-theatre circles were rather surprised and impressed that I was getting proper surround sound from PC games while utilising the DAC within the AVR rather than a DAC on the mobo or a soundcard (any DAC within a PC was considered 'dirty' by virtue of running off the same PSU as the rest of the PC).

    You may well be correct, but AFAIK the atmos output mode in my screenshot is NOT an encoder, it will simply pass pre-encoded atmos (e.g. from a media player playing a file with an atmos soundtrack) or 7.1 PCM from a game. I'm guessing the finish button is greyed out because I don't have Dolby Access (I removed the entire MS store as I consider it bloatware). I know for a fact that other users have been able to get 7.1 sound from games to correctly passthrough to an eARC capable AVR through LG C9 & CX units, but I'm not sure if they had to purchase Dolby Access to enable that. Perhaps you are correct in that 7.1 PCM from games is being encoded as atmos first before being sent to the TV. I will do some tests and some more reading.
     
  19. PPC

    PPC Master Guru

    Messages:
    359
    Likes Received:
    191
    GPU:
    3070
    Thing is, multichannel audio is all about proprietary formats these days, mainly Dolby. There is no video material that uses multichannel PCM. Surround encoded music is very rare. Games on consoles are all encoding in proprietary multichannel audio too which basically only leaves Windows PC gaming that doesnt use proprietary formats. Nowhere in eArc development a "5.1 PC gamer with AVR" was considered i can put my right arm on that. That is why i think eArc wont work like you think it will even tho in theory there is 0 reasons for it not to. Also seeing how typical gamer setup today is 95% headphones i really doubt someone will bother with this since there will be no indication that many people want/need this. Would be very neat if they did tho.
     
    Ormy likes this.

Share This Page