Looking for external DAC/AMP for DT880/250 Pro

Hello there.

I have recently purchased Beyerdynamic DT880/250 Ohm Pro headphones. They're on their way within the coming weeks.

I wanted to go with a Creative Sound Blaster ZxR, a flagship soundcard that really caught my attention. However, it seems to have an amp issue where it is unable to provide its rated 80mW @ 600 Ohm. Although my headphones are 250 Ohm, I don't want to be limited in any way with my purchase.

I am currently considering external DACs w/ Amps, and I'm noticing a pattern where they seem to be vastly superior even at the same price point. Just looking at the audio gear convinces me that this idea is true.

I don't want any features; I just want sound quality. Connectivity options are nice: Optical, Coaxial, and USB. Drivers exist for USB but I bet that they're never going to be much trouble compared to PCI-E soundcards from Asus and Creative (although I'm still worried about dropping support in the future).

My budget is around the same as I would have paid for the Creative Sound Blaster ZxR; $250 or so. Flexible, but I'd prefer something around that. $200? Ok. $300? Fine...

I've been eyeballing the Audio-GD NFB-15.32 and the brand seems to be favored among forums members in forums such as Head-Fi. One thing that worries me is that they don't seem to have published measurements, and one member on Head-Fi mentioned that NFB, which stands for Non-Feedback, is not a very good idea as it allows for distortion.

Is it a good idea by itself to go for an external unit at this price point? In general, how do soundcards compare to external DACs at the same price point, disregarding features?

With digital audio technologies such as Dolby's various implementations, alongside PCM, does the DAC need to support decoding these technologies, or does the decoding happen on the CPU and different digital data gets sent to the DAC? What about soundcards that "support" Dolby technologies? What actually happens, do they process the audio on-board (Creative has an audio processor on-board), or do they simply claim to work with the technology (Asus cards have a DSP and no active audio processor), like motherboards that are labeled as "Windows 7 ready" for instance?

Is it advisable to go with a separate DAC and Amp at this price point? What about in general? Can a DAC unit + Amp cost the same as a combo DAC/AMP unit and sound the same / better, or am I better off purchasing them as a bundle? Do I make do with the idea of a DAC I might favor that it has an included amp?

What about amp recommendations then?

I'd like to hear your recommendations, fellow members. I'm catching up pretty fast to the subject at hand, as it's been barely a few days that I've been reading about the subject, so hit me with your most technical explanations.

 

I have those heaphones, they hurt my head for a good few months, thats with keeping the earcups expanded when not in use with a couple of thick books.

 

I've heard they can be annoying. I'd kill to get these headphones with a less tight band. The Premiums cost a full $100 more, becoming too expensive for my budget.

So you don't recommend I go for these? Or have they improved over time (they no longer hurt)?

 

it took quite a while to get used to, I recommend using a couple thick books when not in use for a few months, They are alright now

 

I'd spend a year and not complain for these fantastic headphones.

Thanks for the confirmation!

 

I have a Audio-GD NFB-15.32 my self i had it for a month and a half, It works really good and it USB transfer chip the USB-32 works flawless for me, it drivers doesn't give me any issues at all, like the NFB-12.o rev2 that I had orginal that used the tennor chip.

Also the NFB-15.32 supports Full uncompressed blu ray audio thru its USB input, meaning you will get the full 32bit/192khz from a blu ray movie that uses that format. I don't know which ones do use 32bit, but a bunch that does use 24bit. The Amp in the NFB-15.32 will power the DT880 600 with ease, Also for me it works just fine in windows 7 and windows 8 pro. I haven't had any issues with it when I use ASIO,Kernel Steaming or Wasapi. I really happy with my NFB15.32.

Now I am using a X-FI to send it audio signal to Whats U playing into the NFB-15.32 thru USB. For When i playing games using CMSS3D headphone and the 7.1 speaker config for the X-Fi. So I still using the USB part of the NFB15.32 but sending the audio data from the X-FI XG Digitally. When I listening to music and watching movies, I set the NFB-15.32 as the default device. I have used the Digital Filters on the front are used to change the sound signature of the unit, I only use a couple of them. I notice the change with the different filter settings I use, but some people might not.

I have use the ASIO of my NFB-15.32 with FL studio and it works very Good. I highly suggest the NFB 15.32, do not get the older models with the Tennor 8802 usb transfer chips. When I bought my NFB15.32 i used EMS and i got it in a week from my postal. I didn't trust DHL since I live in a apart complex that needs a card key to get in the place.

I had the DT880 pro-250 and the headphone headband didn't hurt my head at all, Felt nice but the only reason i moved away from the DT880 pro-250s, Is because I needed closed back headphones, and the earpads got tiring when they hurt my ears.

 

GenClaymore, thank you VERY much for the help!

Indeed, the first look I had at this model was after I saw it in your sig. I had a talk with Darkest regarding this subject and he told me that you are running an external DAC/AMP. So thank you for replying here. Some further questions:

Are those technologies proprietary in a sense that if new audio standards come out, the NFB-15.32 would support them? What I mean is, does the DAC itself need to support those audio standards from Dolby and such to be able to decode them? Or do all these audio standards adhere to a single standard under 32bit/192kHz audio playback? Or is the decoding performed elsewhere?

Does it require drivers to function? If not, what features require drivers to function? Does it indeed sound better over USB, and if so, why? Timing issues and jitter reduction? Optical would mean that I wouldn't need drivers, if I'm not mistaken, and that appeals to me, especially later on, with the possibility for support for later OSes dwindling. Any flaws in my logic here?

This is awesome. So this means I can process effects such as EAX and CMSS-3D without having to connect the NFB-15.32 to the soundcard via Optical? You meant to say you use What U Hear, is that correct? How does this feature work with WASAPI, Kernel Streaming Mode, and ASIO? And why would you change default device when listening to music and movies? So that you don't need to turn CMSS-3D on and off everytime? Shouldn't playback be bit-identical with CMSS-3D off vs. the NFB being set as default device?

So you like the DT880s as well? You recommend them at this price point?

Thank you again!

 

An additional question, suppose I pick up a cheap Sound Blaster Recon3D to use with the NFB-15.32. The NFB-15.32 supports up to 32bit/384kHz over USB. The Recon3D supports up to 24bit/96kHz. Does that limitation apply when the card's DAC is not being used? And if it does, would it be worth it to grab such a card for CMSS-3D and such and sacrifice 32bit/384kHz? I know sources don't come that high, especially not games, but I've heard upsampled content still sounds a bit better than when it is not upsampled, but I don't know why.

 

The VIA USB32 transfer chip supports up to 32bit/384khz but the NFB15.32 only outputs up to 32bit/192khz When using the USB input. Blu ray movies will come out in their full uncompressed DTS-MA or DD-HD format when using USB. The chip that is used for the usb input will decode it. Also when you change the digital filters on the front it changes the max khz the unit will output. By Default its on brickwall OS:2 Filter :2 which is (16bit,24bit,32bit)/192khz.

If you use USB Input for Music and movies, you wont loose the 32bit support, Just when your either using optical input from a sound card or the "What U hear" X-FI Method while gaming. The cheap sound card would only be worth it if you want CMSS3D Headphone. Also The Recon3D do not have CMSS3D headphone, It has something else. The only reason why I have this X-FI Xtreme gamer is it was my dads sound card and he wasn't using it any more. So I used the "What U here" Method to get CMSS3D headphone from the sound card, without using a optical cable to my NFB-15.32 Thru What U hear in Record tab in windows control panel. The only problem with this method is the What U hear tends to stop working on this old X-FI Xtreme gamer card and reg a driver reinstall. I don't know if it happens on the later X-FI models or not.

It's good for if you want both worlds, the gaming dsp functions and the sound quality of the external dac amp. The Recon3D do not have CMSS3D-Headphone, It has SBX Studio which is different,Then with the Recon3D you can just use the optical option in the adv tab and send the audio as a Stereo mix thru optical. But I wouldn't pay full price for a recon3D, Just do this. So a used recon3D for 40-46 or a Used PCI-E X-FI Titanium (non HD) for 40-46 or a Xonar DG for 20-25ish for Dolby Headphone would be more then enough to do it.

But it really up to if you feel you need either CMSS3D headphone,Dolby Headphone or SBX studio surround. if you already have one of these sound cards in your closet already that collection dust. But I wouldn't get a sound card if you don't already have one laying around just to do it. Unless it a very cheap used one that your getting.

 

Thanks again, understood. I was thinking of Creative soundcards since it seems CMSS-3D and the newer implementation of virtual surround are superior to Dolby Headphone. The price of a Recon3D, $60, is not too comforting for what it would offer me. I'm getting a friend a Sound Blaster Z soon, so I guess I'll try it out for the DSP functions in my system and decide whether getting a cheap soundcard (other than the Z of course) is worth it or not. (My current Titanium is dead, RIP)

My only worry is still the decoding. I'm worrying a bit ahead, but let's suppose new Blu-rays, or a new digital movie format came out that uses different audio technologies than what Dolby currently use. Would the DAC be able to decode them from the start, would that possibly require a driver update, or would it be impossible? And is there any way to perform a, let's say, DD-HD or DTS-MA to PCM lossless conversion on the CPU and send the PCM data instead to the DAC?

 

Well Dolby and DTS labs do not have any plans for a new blu ray audio format for now. If they do make decide its time for a new format, all it would take would be a driver update after VIA get pay for the right to include it in their usb audio drivers.

The USB32 VIA transfer chip besides being Async is also what decodes the Dolby Digital HD, and DTS labs DTS-MA, of course it can do PCM Uncompressed audio too, for blu ray movies that doesn't use either DTS-MA or DD-HD. But in general it will do uncompressed audio, I just word it wrong in my post.

Using realtek or some other onboard audio thru analog would of course make the CPU do the processing work,which would including the decoding of Dolby and DTS blu ray formats if the onboard audio codec supports it. But using optical from onboard audio will just down-mix the blu ray audio. It wouldn't be any point to use the onboard audio as a output into the NFB-15.32 thru the optical, not for blu ray playback, It be best using the USB Input on the NFB15.32 instead.

But personally if you do not have a X-FI or some spare sound card in the closet, I wouldn't even bother getting one and just use the USB input on the NFB-15.32. The only reason i would see getting a sound card is for if you want those Game DSP's I mention.Because you can switch inputs on the front of the NFB15.32 From USB input to optical Input. Most sound cards has option to send Stereo mix thru the optical out in there settings.THat would also send the game dsps thru optical as well.


The USB transfer chip that the NFB-15.32 uses info and no the NFB15.32 doesn't out put 5.1 just stereo, in-case you read the info and see the line for muiti-channel.
http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/USB32/USB32EN.htm

 

Acknowledged, thanks.

Why would down-mixing happen over optical in this case?

I'm mostly worrying about what some say. They say that without virtual surround and such, there are sharp transitions from one channel to the next when panning around. What do you think? Are new games good at mixing audio in software and providing positional cues over stereo?

 

Optical doesn't have enough bandwidth to transfer blu ray audio format over them, That is why when using optical for blu ray movies. DTS-MA and DD-HD are down-mixed to 16bit/48khz or in some cases played in DD or DTS. When I tested it, I could hear the differences real easy between using the blu ray audio format, vs it being down-mixed because of optical. The only reason to use optical over HDMI is if you HDTV or home audio receiver doesn't support the blu ray format or have HDMI inputs or plays audio out the speakers when using HDMI.

IT depends on the headphones that are used, as some headphones have very good sound imaging and postional while others don't, as well having Unnatural big (AKG701/2),wide,big or small size sound stage.

I had a DT880 pro-250 at one point, while its not the DT880 600ohm your getting, I had very good sound imaging so I didn't have any problems with using it in games without using CMSS3D headphone or Dolby headphone. When it came to telling where every thing is. Just like now with the A900X that I have which also works good without having to use virtual surround. I now rarely use it.

I think most of those people who have problems with Sharp transitions of sounds from one channel to another, are using gaming marketed headphones like those steel series, Razer bright green headphones, or some other gaming headset's. Now that I think about it, it was the only time I had that issue, is back when I was using gaming marketing stereo headsets, at that time I went to 5.1 gaming headsets because of that. This was before I got some common sense and put money on audiophile grade headphones.

 

Yeah, thank goodness I never went gaming headphones anyways. Straight to a pair of HD485s in 2010.

Thank you for addressing my concerns.

 

NP, In the end it really up to you if you.

 

I have tried it on my Titanium. Never liked it, but not tested it extensively. It used to bug me when it would turn on on its own and I'd be listening to music, then I go berserk looking for it to turn it off.

Thing is, I was just afraid it was necessary to have good positional cues. Seems it's not.

EDIT: BTW I'm getting the 250 Ohm version. Same as yours.

 

Nuforce
Icon HDP http://www.nuforce.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=26:icon-hdp&Itemid=189


Meier Audio
CORDA DACCORD http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-online.de/daccord.htm
CORDA ROCK http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-online.de/rock.htm

Burson Audio
HA-160D http://bursonaudio.com/HA_160D.html
HA-160DS http://bursonaudio.com/HA_160DS.html
DA-160 http://bursonaudio.com/Burson_DA160.html

Audiotrack
Dr.DAC2 http://audiotrack.net/en/dac/518


PS Obviously I missed the price tag... Sorry.

PPS Only advice is to hear AMP with your headphones before purchasing.

 

I will try and sell my parents' car and get back to you...:nerd:

Thanks anyways!

 

http://www.jdslabs.com/item.php?fetchitem=48

 

Are you aware of WASAPI? Since Vista I use software players that can utilize this API. And I hear difference.

As for external DAC, I suspect modern sound cards has more or less decent DAC implementation. So you can by external headphones amplifier. And for $300 you will find a bunch...
REGA EAR, Pro-Ject Head Box II, FiiO E 9...

And you can use Nuforce microDAC-2 as external DAC. It will not drive mega-Ohm headphones to full extent but as an external DAC it will do.