Controversy meets Progress? The great divide on Health Care in America

For the record, I am not a Republican. The Republicans are simply a milder version of the Democrats, they all want to control our lives.

The 'BIG organization(s)' that is/are running healthcare is/are the hospital corporations, not the insurance companies. The insurance companies have, if anything, helped to keep down healthcare/medical services charges by refusing to be extorted by the hospital corporations. It is unfortunate that the consumer is most often the victim, caught between the greed of the hospital corporations and the somewhat less greedy aspects of the insurers.

As to whether all Americans have healthcare, if people have jobs, they can usually afford medical insurance, or they can receive Medicare/Medicaid. Why does Obama and his cronies not focus on that? Because as long as people are dependent on government, they have control over you, that is why!

 

For any who is willing to read and suffer:
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/Senate_health_care_bill.pdf?tag=contentMain;contentBody

Here is all 2400 pages of this bill.

 

But it's not free...I'm sure you understand that someone pays for you to go.

And get out of the thread if you have nothing to contribute. Where did you get your nonsense statistic? From air, I guess, considering the US's maternal death rate is 8 per 100,00 and your's is 6. I would say the difference is almost entirely made up of obesity related complications, but then, I just pulled that one out of my hat.

So similar to third world countries...Like Cuba, with 33. I heard that you shouldn't always believe what you hear.

 

Really? What are your taxes like? I currently pay less than 20% for everything (income tax, Social Security, Medicare, State, Local, etc.)

 

Pages 1-24 are the table of contents and two key provisions:
1. Children up to the age of 26...unmarried, can be covered by their parent's health care.
2. Anyone who is not English proficient shall have an advocate on their behalf for health care benefits.

1 I can live with.
2 basically means that Illegals will have American advocates work on theri behalf to give them care...regardless of their status.

 

Yes, I would like to point out that my sales tax is currently at a very nice 6%.

Someone from Finland or one of these other nations can beat that?

 

You can't be serious?

 

Clause number three, anyone who does not get a health care plan will be fined $1,000 dollars.
Well that's blatantly unconstitution and it flies in the face of common sense. This bill is to help the poor, yet...it...systematically places them in jail for being poor?

What the ****? Wait I was wrong. This plan has a provision the exempts the very poor from this policy. What I meant to say is that Obama is basically forcing the middle class like myself to pay for this.

NICE ONE!

 

I would say he absolutely is serious.

 

Let's be careful here, Iplaynaked.

 

Dunno, it's progressive. http://www.worldwide-tax.com/finland/finland_tax.asp
Haven't paid any taxes in my whole life, yet somehow I'm living a fine life. Then again, I haven't done any real work yet.

 

Yes, I am serious. Why do you not agree? Do you have evidence to the contrary?

Have you ever received medical care in the United States? If not, I respectfully ask that you refrain interjecting comments about something you know nothing about.

Sadly, I foresee this thread disintegrating into pure ideological quarreling between proponents and opponents of government-run healthcare. It will probably be closed soon.

 

So basically, to bring down the price of health care, we must...basically not smoke, drink, eat fatty food, and exercise. Things our doctors have been telling us for years.
Nice waste of two pages - 33 and 34. The best way to end obesity is to get rid of all fast food places, convience stores, Applebees, and such. But then that puts tens of millions out of work.



Arctucas, if you or anyone else read the very first page, you'd know that is forbidden in this thread. This thread is for civil, yet intellectual debate on this issue. We all disagree...that's fine.

However, that's why I specifically stated no AMERICAN flaming or no EUROPEAN and other nation flaming, as the average American opposes socialized medicine while the average European supports it.

 

It is my opinion, as a conservative Libertarian, that if you choose an unhealthy lifestyle then you must pay for the consequences. The ultimate cost of your personal irresponsibility should not be borne by others. However, I will defend to the death your right to live your life as you please.

EDIT:

@Devolution,

If I have crossed the line (which I believe I have not as I have not made any disparaging remarks about anyones regionality, nationality, ethic background, political views, or made other possibly offensive remarks), then please report me to the forum moderators to have the offensive material expunged.

 

Then you and pages 33-34 are in opposition. I see legislation out right banning salt and cigarettes nationwide in 5 years. Granted I hate cigarettes and don't like additional salt, but even still I'd prefer to not have it banned. Rise in crime and all.

 

Although I understand your concerns and I am in the same boat as you, I would just like to say that $1000 is nothing compared to medical bills.

I am lucky I had health insurance because I was in the hospital for some very serious injuries, and had I not had health insurance, I would either be paying off debt the rest of my life or would have to declare bankruptcy. Literally, my bills were that expensive (I don't want to get into details about my surgeries, but I will say that they were not cheap at all).

 

Pages 40-44 talk about how the money we don't have will be spent systematically. States asking for grants for health care funds and wellness programs will, upon approval, get no less than $1million and no more than $5million per grant year. I don't see states taking that money and using it solely for health care when child welfare, education, law enforcement, and other things they are consistently in the red for.

 

what you want the money making asshol doctors like my father had?
oh sry mister picarelli i am going on vacation for a for days i will put that stint in you need when i get back?(he wanted him in hospitle over thanksgiving holiday)thank god that dic said it was ok to got home and come back when he go back from vacation after my family bitched(was not an emergency)
then the f's at the hospitle killed him when they went into his lung and infected him with some sht they did not clean up from the last guy they shoved it into.you want that???????
you want that?they also give chemo to a 95 yr old lady?dead in 2 treatments.heck if i found cancer in a 95 yr old i'll get her a pack of smokes.
just the other day they f'ed up one of my elderly customers by giveing two meds that were not supposed to combine yeah he made it thuogh d day in wwII but who knows if he does with his rich doctor?
not to mention my pal luke who was a wwI vet full of life at 90ish. yup they found cancer so ofcoarse they gave him chemo dead in a month from the CHEMO not the cancer
ok as for the kids now i feel bad for...my sister has a 9 month old girl she burps up(duh f'in kids do that)the doctor? bang hooks um early! meds for that and they dish out antibiotics like its candy :3eyes:
listen the doctors(most) are dickheads now they see a 85-90 yr old patient they give them the most expensive treatments before they die you know one last parting shot of cash for them.

just like some teachers they go into the profession not to help but make money or for the bennies

ot but why are the same meds in canada cheaper then here in the usa?
cus the drug companys are f's too thats why

op said nothing about doctor bashing hope its ok

 

Are you seriously suggesting that Obama is deliberately creating unemployment in the world's largest economy?

Did you not hear about the huge global recession?

Do you seriously believe there should be no safety net if you lose your job, if say, there's a huge global recession?

This highlights a key point - opposition to the idea of public health has caused many of the problems.

What? The same could be said of taxes or the entire legal system. You have to take part, you have no choice.

Are you honestly arguing against the acceptance of pre-existing conditions? I would have thought even the most hard-line Republican would see that this policy is disgusting.


I just wish people would do some research and make up their own mind, rather than just listen to their parents / whatever Glenn Beck says.

 

That's a link to your income tax.

The VAT, which would be the indirect version of sales tax, is 22% at least that's the most recent I could find, perhaps you can help me there.

22% vs 6%.

You pay for it, believe me. You pay for it. It just doesn't come as a bill when you go.

But the worst part is, this isn't even about free health care, so I don't know why you guys are coming here saying things about free dental and whatnot. If anything, health care has exactly the same costs as before only now you are FORCED by law to buy it.

I have never listened to Glenn Beck and my mother is about as informed on this as a brick wall.

I do not have to pay taxes. If I choose not to work, I don't have to pay income taxes. And the legal system? What? I don't have to take part in the legal system. Even jury duty can be avoided by not voting.

You can't avoid existing.

And while I do not agree that pre-existing conditions should preclude someone from medical attention, and it doesn't as it stands today, forcing insurance companies..Who are independent bodies working with money they have earned by offering a service to people in a free market, should not and...be forced to use that money in a way they don't want to.

At least have the decency to take the money from them via taxes and then spend it, instead of just telling them how to spend it.

And my argument, if you read it, was that to simply mandate to insurers that must cover pre-existing conditions without any qualifications is a direct incentive to not buy health care insurance until you are sick.