old sli vs new sli. you wont believe it!

Discussion in 'Videocards - NVIDIA GeForce Drivers Section' started by g000fy, Sep 24, 2008.

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  1. sykozis

    sykozis Ancient Guru

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    AFR is "alternate frame rendering", SFR is "split frame rendering"....neither are related to scan-line interleve. Scan-line interleve has a greater potential for image corruption because of the alternating line processing. With nVidia rolling out their "Hybrid SLI" idea, scan-line interleve becomes impossible because IGP's are slower than discrete graphics processors. With ATI's "Hybrid Crossfire" you can use 2 different cards from the same generation and run into the exact same problem as nVidia's "Hybrid SLI". Unless you're just that incompetent, you'd understand that scan-line interleve is completely impossible with Hybrid SLI because the idea is that the PC uses an IGP for 2D graphics and enables a discrete graphics card when the IGP reaches an unacceptably high load (like running 3D graphics). So, why would nVidia suddenly decide to start using a technique that hasn't been used in over 10 years when it's impossible for ALL of them hardware to do? Scan-line interleve requires 2 graphics cards with identical performance. There goes the 8x SLI configurations.....since only the primary card runs at full speed. No Hybrid SLI, since the IGP is considerably slower than any discrete graphics card. Plus, nVidia would have to develope a specialized procedure just to make a stupid idea work just because YOU want them to become 3dFx.
     
  2. g000fy

    g000fy Banned

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    you are really funny.
    you are taking everything i say out of context.

    i clearly said they are very similar in that they both dont use load balancing when in AFR or original SLI mode
    it is not using an algorythim to adjust the gpu load.

    what is wrong with you
    i dont have a hybrid sli system.....<<<<look to the left for my system specs

    im saying why isnt there an option for original sli since both AFR and original SLI dont use an algoryhim and they are very very similar
    like i say its real easy to change the code to render every other line instead of render every other frame with no load balancing...
    easy peasy
     
  3. Cybermancer

    Cybermancer Don Quixote

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    :givebeer:
     
  4. g000fy

    g000fy Banned

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    :stewpid:

    i couldnt find the sign like yours so i clicked the default.
    definately not calling you stupid
     

  5. Nato.dbnz

    Nato.dbnz Ancient Guru

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    Can you not accept that the reason they don't do it is that:
    a)there is nothing to be gained by it; or
    b)it isn't technically viable with current games/hardware (i know you said it was easy peasy but forgive me for doubting your technical knowledge); or
    c)out of the options we do have available, split frame and alternate frame rendering, scan-line-interleave is miles behind in performance and would be pointless to include?

    Now I'm not saying the above are true....what I am saying is don't you think the people who have created these video cards, their sli technology, and the drivers to run them might have a better idea about how to make them run the best? Personally I leave decisions on how to make and run their technology up to them, not up to forum user with an end users insight into the situation.
     
  6. g000fy

    g000fy Banned

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    this is my point exactly

    the reason nvidia did not put original SLI in the options has to do with pride.
    it would be exactly the same performace as AFR now wouldnt it.
    im saying as a long time fan of 3dfx and ati and nvidia why dont we give credit where credit is due.
    sli was created buy 3dfx not nvidia....now it is possible that 3dfx infringed on this very idea....i really dont know what the infringement was that nvidia wound up owning 3dfx but until i hear it this technology belongs to 3dfx and they should be given props dont you think

    i mean yes nvidia is the rightfull owner and they even own the SLI name but why not have SLI as an option instead of AFR because i bet you $100.00 it is exactly the same performance but nvidia called it AFR to make a point.
     
  7. ElementalDragon

    ElementalDragon Ancient Guru

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    you seriously don't read much, do you? AFR and "SLI" are NOT THE SAME!!!! how exactly is having both cards basically rendering every frame at the exact same time the same as having both cards render every other frame? Had you read my last post a little more in depth... you would have noticed i pointed that out already. the "original" SLI as you put it had both cards rendering every other line. In that sense... even though there were two GPU's rendering a separate batch of lines... they were both rendering the same frame. Or.... let's try to put it into perspective for you.

    - AFR vs. "SLI" in an instance where the camera angle changes slightly:

    "SLI"= both cards render alternating lines of the entire initial frame, and on the next frame.... both cards render alternating lines of that frame as well

    AFR = for the initial frame... Video Card #1 is rendering, while Video Card #2 is preparing the following frame, and on the following frame, Video Card #2 is rendering while Video Card #1 prepares the next frame.

    And if you want to bring SFR into the mix... let's try to sum that one up too, shall we?

    For this example... let's assume that the frame being rendered is at a resolution of 1920x1200

    "SLI" = each video card renders a portion of the screen EQUAL to 960x600 every frame

    SFR = each video card renders the screen in proportion to how much workload is required for each half of the screen.

    and.... I'm rehashing everything you say? uuh... have you looked at your own freakin post?

    hmm.... yep.... I'M the one rehashing what's being said. Two things are funny about you bringing up the way load balancing is done at that EXACT spot.

    1) you mention it in the post JUST AFTER i explain how you were incorrect in thinking load balancing isn't as good as it used to be.... and yet don't even reference the fact that i'm the one that brought it up, yet say i'm rehashing what you say

    2) You didn't even mention SFR anywhere in your post #38.... yet try to use SFR's method of load balancing in your post that only mention's AFR... which even as YOU said... has NO load balancing

    Again.... stop trying to make everyone believe you're right before you contradict yourself into a hole so deep nobody can follow you.



    ... wait.... you're already there.

    edit:
    .... exactly what in Nato's post proved your point that NVidia didn't include "SLI" in the options due to wanting to maintain their pride?
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2008
  8. mattymaxima

    mattymaxima Member Guru

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    You mention AFR as if it renders a completely different scene, like one scene is way more/less intense than another, and therefore the gpus cannot be sharing the load correctly. What you have to remeber is that AFR is merely taking turns with "frames" in which case most users see 60 per SECOND and have the slightest changes from one to another. Frame changes are more gradual than one would think, therefore, each gpu basically renders the same image as the one before or next and hence is as close to 50 percent as we can get with the API and game porgramming most commonly used now.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2008
  9. Nato.dbnz

    Nato.dbnz Ancient Guru

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    The problem with your argument is that...

    this
    this
    and this
    ..are all massive assumptions, so without any factual evidence to back yourself up here you are just arguing against a brickwall of logic and reason.
     
  10. g000fy

    g000fy Banned

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    one more time you keep repeating the same thing and it is you who are not getting it.

    take 2 8800gts in sli mode....pretend it can do original sli exactly how you descibe it and it does afr how you exactly describe it.

    ok we both understand that.

    here is where you get lost the throughput is exactly the same performace rather you do it in original SLI or AFR
    no matter if one frame is in queue while the other frame is being rendered (AFR)
    because original SLI when you alternate the lines it off loads the work load to the other card
    the throuput (the end result) the frames per second are exactly the same.

    it still only take 1 day to do it in the driver program and i bet its already there and tested but instead of using that method they chose AFR.

    like i say they both do the same thing no matter how you spell it...they are not using the algorythim to look for screen differences in the upper hald and lower half like SFR

    hence that is = load balancing
    hence it is the same throughput
    hence why didnt they just use original SLI insted of AFR in the options menu

    i will give you this if you are correct.
    with the new sli everything that i been told so far is that both frame buffers are identical
    i will give you bennifit of the doubt in this but to my understanding both frame buffers hold the exact same information (like i said from what i have read so far)

    a couple more things i like to add.
    "maximum pre-rendered frames" in the cp will at one time hold the exact info in both frame buffers

    ex: say it is set to 3 like it is when its default...
    all 3 frames are loaded exactly the same in both frame buffers
    then part of the gpu tells which card and what frame to render
    but i bet they both have the exact same info and it just page flips

    same thing as original sli

    what i mean is it alternates frame buffers eventhough they both contain the exact same info.
    which could easily be converted to do every other line
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2008

  11. ElementalDragon

    ElementalDragon Ancient Guru

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    .... what is it "off load"-ing? each card renders the same frame at the same time... with one rendering the even numbered lines, and the other rendering the odd numbered lines. if you ask me.... having the same two cards doing the same exact workload at the exact same time isn't quite as efficient as having each card alternating the workload each frame.

    And as it's already been pointed out... it wouldn't be done in remotely close to a day... unless you want it to run as sh*tty as today's SLI did when it first came out. SLI has improved quite a lot since it's first introduction with NVidia.... and as Nato said, yet you ignored... they probably didn't see it as being any more viable an option as AFR or SFR.

    Oh... and as for the whole thing with NVidia and 3DFX.... 3DFX didn't become a part of NVidia because of some patent infringement. NVidia bought out 3DFX.

    stop tryin to make it seem like i'm the one talking out my a**. i'm not the one that started a thread saying that the performance of SLI technology from 10 years ago is better than the performance of SLI today based solely on the benchmarks from those games 10 years ago. The reason everyone has to keep repeating what they've already said is because you can't seem to get the fact that you're more than likely wrong through your head.
     
  12. g000fy

    g000fy Banned

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    i added more to my prev post when you were typing this up
    please re-read
    if im making you sound like you dont know what you are talking about i definately am not trying to.
    i know you are smart but for the love of god why cant you understand this idk ;)
     
  13. ElementalDragon

    ElementalDragon Ancient Guru

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    Didn't feel like editing the last post... and didn't feel like waiting for you to reply with some stupid comment about saying what i've already said.

    Just for sh*ts and giggles... i decided to do a little searching online. To tell you the truth... it took me 5 seconds to find the reason why Scan Line Interleave was probably left out of Scalable Link Interface. All i did was search google for "NVidia scan line interleave"... and the very first result it came up with is an article from HardwareZone back in 2004 when SLI was being introduced... and it mentions Scan Line Interleave.

    That enough of a reason for it to not have been included? or is "pride" still your main opinion as to why they didn't include it? Summarizing that little paragraph i quoted... it all leads to what has been said DOZENS of times in this thread... and even a couple times by me already (although i was just repeating myself for no reason according to you).... Games today are not the same as games from 10 years ago. Times change.... technologies change.

    As it's been cliche'd several times already... we're not the ones that don't comprehend the idea.
     
  14. Nato.dbnz

    Nato.dbnz Ancient Guru

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    I believe that to be game, set and match. :)
     
  15. g000fy

    g000fy Banned

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    you are picking and chosing parts here and there.

    i clearly stated that when fsaa and anisotropic filtering are disabled then no the games are exactly the same less shaders.
    they are exactly the same as the part that gets put on the screen not the post processing.

    but as many people with the new sli already know....they have to disable fsaa and anisotropic filtering on many games to get it to work already.

    that being said original sli is better even with you saying that the frame buffers are not the same
    i stated a statement and didnt hear you respond to it about both frame buffers holding exactly the same information and page flipping to get the AFR and you didnt respond so i will take it im correct on that.

    here is another thing

    when you are running 1080P good luck on any fsaa with a 512mb card
    so if fsaa is disabled then again original sli would be great to use.

    fsaa can only be used if you got extra ram to spare on the vcard.
    there is a performance hit.

    so there would be certain instances where it would be good and easy to use original sli over afr and sfr dont you think?
     

  16. ElementalDragon

    ElementalDragon Ancient Guru

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    for what? One of the main reasons to USE SLI, other than if you're running at a high resolution, is so you can also use AA and AF at that high resolution. It doesn't even have to be the highest amount of AA and AF possible. even the slightest bit of AA helps with visual quality.

    Also... i have a single 8800GTX.... and i haven't run a single game so far BESIDES Crysis, without AA, and it ran perfectly fine. why would it be so much different with SLI? in HL2DM i run 8x MSAA and 16x AF... and it runs perfectly fine. Granted it's slightly old... but doesn't mean it's a pushover for every video card.

    As for your last comment about instances where it would be good and easy to use the original sli over AFR and SFR.... why include something that has a very high chance of not being used? As the part of the article i quoted in my last post said... people who are into gaming (enough so to use SLI, let alone AA and AF), are also not too fond of screen tearing.

    Funny.... you harp on everyone in this thread for not comprehending what you're saying.... i post a snippet of an article explaining EXACTLY why scan line interleave wasn't included.... and you still try to make excuses as to why it should be. In case you didn't know... DirectX 10.1 compatible hardware is geared towards having a mandatory 4x AA.
     
  17. Shex

    Shex Guest

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    g000fy, face it, if the OLD SLI was even slightly the same performance as the current SLI techniques, Nvidia would of implemented it from day one.... The reason why we don't see it right now is because it was not fast enough to even give you decent frame rates. Trust me Nvidia invest billions on designing new hardware/software. Its safe to say they already tried the " old SLI " technique and it FAILED, end of story.


    You can sit on your chair, arguing that Nvidia can easily do it because they already have similar techniques but it wont change nothing. If you still think its possible go back to school and learn programming or something...Then show us how its done.
     
  18. Stop It RAWR

    Stop It RAWR Master Guru

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    Wow, a thread by someone who hasn't a damn clue what he is talking about, but certainly isn't aware of this fact.

    Here's a little piece of info for you that may be shocking: Nvidia bought 3dFX, the reason? their tech.

    The very thing you are wanting back is one of the reasons that nVidia bought out the dying great that was 3dFX, the fact that SLI is what it is today is because Scan Line Interleave was not a viable solution for their product line.

    IF using the original form of SLI was as easy as you say, AND would be a better option in some games, it would be an option, the fact is however, it is most certainly not, this isn't pride, this isn't Nvidia being useless, it is the simple fact that Nvidias tech team, which run into the hundreds of employees and know a lot more than you, either haven't got it working or have deemed it not worth the effort.

    So, to re-cap you know better than Nvidia (and the 3dFX team who moved to Nvidia post-buyout)? Got it?

    *Marks g000fy down as a complete nutcase*

    Oh, one other tidbit, SLI was very effective in games made using Glide, 3dFXs proprietary API, one that, while effective in the time period before Direct3D and OpenGL, was also only suited to 3dFX cards, and probably helped them when it came to coding the codepath needed for SLI.

    Moving to the current SLI you'll see that Nvidia doesn't use its own API and works with the standards of OpenGL and Direct3d, both aren't coded by Nvidia and both are not are not coded with SLI in mind, hence some games inexplicably do not like the system whether it's using AFR or SFR.
     
  19. g000fy

    g000fy Banned

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    say what you want but if you ran AFR and original SLI side by side in the same machine and same hardware the frame rates would be exactly the same.

    that is my whole point that none of you understand yet.
    i have to drill it through your heads and maybe some of you will see the light.

    original sli and todays afr are very very similar, almost identical.

    original frame buffer method on 2 3dfx did not pre-load the next frame. and todays methods load the next frame.

    weather you are display alternate frames or displaying alternate scan lines its all the same
    that is why i say why dont they just use sli option in the cp menu.

    afr has 2 frame buffers that hold the same contents as the 2 frame buffers on the 3dfx cards but the 3dfx cards only held 1 frame where as the hardware on todays gpus can hold more then one frame but no matter how you spell only 1 frame is displayed at any given time.

    you can only have one screen on your monitors screen at one time
    rather the driver tells it to read ahead from 2 frame buffers that act as one frame buffer or not.

    so it comes down to this what method is faster.
    well i bet original sli is faster as it has one less step to do.
    it loads all the data up in ram
    it then caches one frame to the 2 frame buffers
    it then outputs the vertical scan lines in an alternating method

    now the new sli

    it loads all data in ram
    it then caches multiple frames to the framebuffers
    it then flips from one frame buffer to the next

    so weather you are flipping frame buffers or are flipping scan lines it is the same throughput or maybe faster in original sli which would not have fsaa and anisotropic filtering

    and about your 8800gtx<<<that is funny...like we all have 768memory
    btw i did own that vcard (gave it to my kid) and that vcard was good and you could do 2x fsaa in 1680x1050 and i think maybe 4x
    but with 512mb card on 1080P goooood lucccckkkk...
    let me see someone benchmark that please
    with fsaa on 2x

    today the sli is different because some of the hardware features need to be pre-rendered before it enters the frame buffer or it pre-renders those affects in the frame buffer....im not sure.

    im saying when you take those affects off (fsaa) which you will have alot of fun trying to do with a 512mb card and you will not even be able to attempt it with a 256mb in 1080P that the original sli method would prob be better.
     
  20. Wanell

    Wanell Member

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    This is just ****ing painful.
     
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