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MOUSE Guide

Discussion in 'General Hardware' started by Corrupt^, Dec 29, 2010.

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Chess Guest

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Oh

Chess, Sep 3, 2020

#241
nyrmetros Master Guru

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I just got the Logitech G502 wireless mouse...... So far I am loving it. Doesn't have much RGB, just the G logo, but the battery life is stellar. Feels very comfy and smooth.

nyrmetros, Sep 7, 2020

#242
DannyD Ancient Guru

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SteelSeries Sensei Ten arriving tomorrow, can't wait, never had one only razer, which i'm done with.

DannyD, Sep 15, 2020

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DannyD Ancient Guru

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The Sensei ten arrived, it's so comfortable can't wait to use it.

DannyD, Sep 16, 2020

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Hypernaut Master Guru

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DannyD said: ↑

SteelSeries Sensei Ten arriving tomorrow, can't wait, never had one only razer, which i'm done with.
Click to expand...

Razer products feel cheap and do not last. I used to be a Razer fanboi too. Once my current Razer Deathadder mouse expires I'm going to grab the Logitech MX518. Delighted to see it return. It was a family favourite back in the early 2000's.

Hypernaut, Sep 19, 2020

#245
metagamer Ancient Guru

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Hypernaut said: ↑

Razer products feel cheap and do not last. I used to be a Razer fanboi too. Once my current Razer Deathadder mouse expires I'm going to grab the Logitech MX518. Delighted to see it return. It was a family favourite back in the early 2000's.
Click to expand...

Razer once again make decent mice. PTFE feet, optical switches, decent cords and sensors. Viper Mini is an utter bargain at $40 for example.

On paper, they have everything you will ever need, compared to for example Logitech. Logitech to this day refuse to use PTFE feet and they suffer from double clicking far too much. And they're cords leave a lot to be desired.

The perfect mouse for me still doesn't exist. I would kill for a G502 that is wireless and offers 80 hours of battery life, with PTFE feet and PBT shell. With a scroll wheel upgrade. All this at sub 80g weight. Razer Basilisk Ultimate is pretty close, but the battery life is no good and the weight is still too high, albeit lighter than the Logitech G502 Lightspeed.

The thing is, once you try a light wireless mouse, everything with a cord will feel clunky. Sure, you can paracord your mouse and buy a bungee, but then you're looking to spend some $40 on top of the base price and you'll still not get the comfort of the wireless mouse.

For me, right now, I'm kinda happy with the Logitech GPW. But I'll be picking up the GPW Superlight. Some 20g lighter than the current GPW with a smaller body, perfect. Hopefully more grippy.

Last edited: Oct 3, 2020

metagamer, Oct 3, 2020

#246

Hypernaut, TheSissyOfFremont and Corrupt^ like this.
Corrupt^ Ancient Guru

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GPW shape is a bit to high for me. But I do hope they make a mini version of this:
https://www.pcgamingrace.com/products/glorious-model-o-wireless-matte-black

As for Razer, on the older Deathadders, the scrollwheel kept breaking for me, but the rest was always intact and still working. It was a mechanical failure, the structural support for the wheel wasn't strong enough. Not sure if they improved this over the years, one would expect that at least.

For me however the perfect mouse would be the old MX300 shape with a new 3360 or Hero sensor, wireless and sub 70g.

Not a fan of the G203 model, the sides are to slanted (V-shaped).

Last edited: Oct 10, 2020

Corrupt^, Oct 10, 2020

#247
thanhan Guest

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Thx, and here's a free bump, lol

thanhan, Oct 20, 2020

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Corrupt^ said: ↑

GUIDE - Deciding on a new mouse

About a week ago, I started wondering if it would be a good idea to write this, so here goes!

When buying a new mouse there are several things you have to keep in mind, such as mouse prediction, the speed until you no longer have perfect control, etc.
I'll offer as much info as possible, but in the end a mouse is a personal thing, not everyone will like the same mouse and that's usually down to the shape.

Mouse Prediction

Mouse prediction is an algorithm that will try and predict the path you're trying to take. The problem with it, is that when making very small movements of just a
few pixels, the mouse won't always make a perfect representation of your hand's movements.

How can you test if your mouse has mouse prediction?

Open up paint and just try and draw a straight line. Without prediction, the line will usually be imperfect, with prediction the mouse will try to correct the path and
at a certain point the line will be perfectly straight.

Another way to test it is by looking very close to your monitor until you start seeing the actual pixels (only works on LCD's, not on CRT's) and then try to move in a
square of 4 pixels. Lowering your dpi helps for this test.

Do I wan't mouse prediction?

It really depends on the user. If you were using a mouse with mouse prediction up until this day and it never bothered you, don't worry to much about it.
Another noticable thing is that mouse prediction can actually be a good thing on higher resolutions. There's more pixels for the algorithm to work with and it kind of
helps to make your movements more stable. On lower resolutions however it's often better to have no prediction.

List of mice without prediction:

Razer Deathadder (Depending on firmware used)

Logitech G500 (can be disabled/enabled through setpoint, logitech calls it "angle snapping")

Logitech G9x (I'm assuming, since it's the same sensor as the G500/Xai)

Steelseries Xai (Can be disabled/enabled through software or LCD)

Pretty much all of the old MS Intelli mice

Perfect Control, Meters/second, Malfunction speed

Perfect control is a term that kind of came to life after the big ESReality Mousescore review done by Sujoy:

http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1265679

Instead of reviewing mice the old fashioned way, he would use a device to measure the maximum speed a mouse could handle before it quits on you and skips.
Depending on how the mouse handles "skipping" it'll either just stop tracking or even worse, making you flip around and look at the sky or ground.

This is probably THE MOST important thing about a mouse for a FPS gamer. It basically reflects how reliable a mouse is. How fast can you flick a mouse around
until it quits on you?

Laser mice, aside from the latest ones, usually have a very bad top speed, below 1.5 m/s. Opticals on the other hand can go above 2 m/s or even higher. This is
where the MX518 and old Deathadder really start to shine. These are 2 mice you can throw around like a madman, they won't skip on you, not even when reaching
4 m/s.

The newer laser mice such as the Xai and G500 have a much higher perfect control speed compared to the G5 and Ikari (and Copperhead). Though 1 detail should
be mentioned. As you increase the DPI on these mice, the treshold for perfect control will start decreasing. But it's not really a big issue, unless you're one of
those people using 5000 dpi and an ingame sens of 0.1.

Sadly, mouse manufacturers still don't like putting this numbers in the specs, so in the end you're pretty much stuck to trying a mouse or reading comments on
forums.

Now on the graphs of Sujoy, aside from perfect control, there's still another "state" of tracking, usually where the graph stops increasing, but still keeps going.
In this state, the mouse will have reached the maximum speed at which it can "move", but it is still capable of tracking. So moving your hand faster won't really
translate into faster on screen movement. A nice example of this would be the MX518:

http://www.esreality.com/?a=longpost&id=1265679&page=14

In the end, the most important thing to look at is the malfunction speed (when it skips), or better yet, if you get a chance to test a mouse, open up a game and
swipe it across the mousepad as fast as you would possibly move it while gaming.

Mice with a high malfunctioning speed (the higher the better):

Steelseries Xai

Zowie EC 1/2

Logitech G500

Logitech G9x (I haven't tested this one, but it has the same sensor as the G500/Xai)

Basically all the Razer mice that were released since the Deathadder

All of the Logitech MX series mice (518, 510, 300, ...)

For other laser mice that aren't included in the list, if they use the AVAGO 9500 sensor (G9x, Xai, G500), their malfunctioning speed should be pretty high.

Another list with more recent mice:
http://wikis.jp/interfacedevice/index.php?MaximumSpeed_en

How much DPI do I need & Sensitivity

Your camera standpoint moves around in a circle of 360°. There's no real "best sensitivity" but there's 1 way to test if you could do with more dpi:

To test, set your dpi quite low as it'll be easier

Draw a line of 1 pixel thick in photoshop/paint

Now get close to the monitor so you can actually SEE the pixels (only works on LCD's)

Use the line as a guideline and try and move your mouse so that you can move in a perfect square of 4 pixels clock or counter clock wise

Now you've got an idea of what the maximim precision possible is like on your monitor (obviously best done at native resolution). After all of this is done, go
ingame (keep the low dpi) and try to make a very small circle, similar to this square.

Your viewpoint moves in degrees, but we're looking for the maximum possible precision on your monitor. You can try a really high sensitivity like 10 ingame
(in CSS, Quake) and you'll see that you're not capable of making very fine adjustments.

After you understand this, start from your own sensitivity you had and see if you can make a very fine movement, similar in detail to the square in paint/photoshop.
Lower your ingame sensitivity until you reach that point.

This sensitivity is what you could consider the ideal one for your setup (monitor, etc), setting it lower then that will not give you a visible increase in precision
(it's still there but you're limited by what your monitor can show you).
Now all that's left to be done is comparing this sensitivity to your old one and increase the dpi you were using (not the low one for this test obviously, the one you used to play with).

An example: going from sensitivity 2.7 to 0.9 with a dpi of 450:

2.7 / 0.9 = 3, so then you multiply your dpi with 3
450 * 3 = 1350 DPI

This will give you the same sensitivity but with the ability to make more precise small movements.

This also brings me to the point of the windows slider. Going above 6 out of 11 should be considered pure evil. 6/11 is ideal and going lower won't be a big problem,
windows will simply use interpolation and discard inputs.

Also the windows slider it's scaling is NOT what people think it is, 3/11 is NOT half of 6/11. The scaling also depends on wether you have "Enhance mouse pointer
precision" ticked or not (turn that off btw, EPP = Mouseacceleration).

With EPP ticked off:

1/11 = 0.03125

2/11 = 0.0625

3/11 = 0.25

4/11 = 0.5

5/11 = 0.75

6/11 = 1.0

For more see this thread from MarktheC:
http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1847344#pid1847344

When games use rawinput, which is better, windows input will be ignored and your sensitivity will be similar to what it is when the windows slider would be 6/11.
If you're changing the windows sensitivity or going from 4/11 to raw input, you can simply calculate your new ingame sensitivity or new DPI like in this example:

We have a mouse with 1800 dpi, sensitivity 1.0 ingame, 5/11 in windows and we would like to switch to rawinput or windows sensitivity 6/11:

Simply multiply 1800 with the value for 5/11, 0.75 and this will give you your new DPI:

1800DPI x 0.75 = 1350DPI

Same for the sensitivity ingame. We have sensitivity of 2.0 ingame and 4/11 in windows. We want to change the windows sensitivity to 6/11.

Sens (2.0) x Windows 4/11 (0.5) = 1.0 ingame

I also suggest you install a mousefix. Most games won't need it these days, but some older or badly coded games will force EPP on, giving you acceleration.
A mousefix simply edits the coordinates of the acceleration so it reverts back to a straight lineair line.

The best mousefix would be the WCAFix, which actual disables the code in windows for EPP:
http://rapidshare.com/files/414877656/WCAFix_AllOS.rar

On windows 7 and vista you will have to enable testsigning though.

For registry mousefixes, 7 requires a different one then Vista/XP. Microsoft fixed a slight issue on 7 with how mousemovement was translated to on screen
movement.

For Windows 7 the best fix would be MarktheC's:
http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1846538

For XP/Vista the ideal fix is Cheese's, I still need to find a link though, the original one is down:
http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1548753

Shape

The only tip I can give you after trying loads of mice:

For god sakes, stop looking at the pretty lights, you're supposed to be able to hold that thing for several hours without getting cramps...
Preffered shape is completely personal.

Build Quality

Right now we're not taking into account the few cases where people their mouse breaks quickly because of manufacturing flaws or w/e, we're looking at pure
raw built quality.

I've opened up and looked inside a ton of mice and if I where to pick a brand for the nr1 spot for build quality, it would be Logitech, especially the old MX series.
All of the MX mice I ever had are still working, even right down to the 10 year old MX300...

Razer seems to have improved, but their scroll wheels tend to break quite fast.

Steelseries Ikari seemned to have lot's of flaws, I took a risk buying the Xai, it seems they didn't make the same mistake twice.

I don't know about Roccat, if I had a bit more cash to spare, I would've bought the new Kone as well to see how it performed.

A few more words of advice

Until all reviewers start testing malfunctioning speeds or turn into fnatic f0rest, don't bother with mouse reviews. They're utterly POINTLESS. They'll keep
sprouting the same crap over and over:

"Feels nice and comfortable"
"Looks nice"
"Tracks very well" (with the reviewers mediocre gaming performance any mouse would tbh)

And the list goes on. The best way is to do some research on forums like ESReality and Razerblueprints. Does a mouse have a problem that seems to be happening
to more then half it's users (or in Razer's case, everyone...)? Then stay away from it.

About Razer lately, I suggest staying away from mice from Razer with Z-Axis tracking at the moment, this is why:

Extra Info

A good, detailed list of mice and their used sensors and specs, made by skylit on the overclock.net forums:

http://www.overclock.net/mice/854100-ocn-mouse-sensor-reference-performance-sheet.html

EDIT:

Windows 8.1 Fix

This will fix the strange mouse behavior in some games (and the low polling rate reported in some mouse utilities).

Link to Microsoft KB article: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2908279

2 methods to get the fix:

Through regular updates

Install the hotfix (lost the url need to get this one back)

How to apply the fix pretty much system wide:

Open up regedit.exe

Browse to "HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\AppCompatFlags\"

See if there's a ''Key" (like a folder if you don't know what a key is) named "Layers"

If not present, create a new "Key" in "AppCompatFlags"

Inside "Layers" create a new string value named C:\Windows\explorer.exe

As value for this string use: NoDTToDITMouseBatch

Once done, close regedit and open up a CMD window with admin rights

execute the following command in the CMD window: Rundll32 apphelp.dll,ShimFlushCache

Reboot just to make sure (registry adjustments were made in HKLM afterall)

This will make the fix active whenever explorer.exe is active, so practically always. If you only wish to trigger the fix for certain applications, follow the same steps as above but replace the string value name with the path to your application (per example: X:\pathtoyourapp\csgo.exe). Repeat this for every needed application if you're not planning on doing this "system-wide" (using the explorer.exe trick).

Example

Once you've done this, your mouse works just as in Windows 8.0.
Click to expand...

I am happy with my mouse, Microsoft Wheel Optical. It has an IntelliEye sensor which gives me pin-point accuracy with no pauses. I bought it not knowing it's hardware, I just did it for it's taillight.
Benjamin Fazzio, Dec 4, 2020

#249
Chastity Ancient Guru

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G903 Hero + Powerplay with G440 pad <3

Never have to even think about plugging in the mouse. Ever. And it's an awesome pad too. (Also comes with G240 cloth pad)

Chastity, Dec 17, 2020

#250
Dragam1337 Ancient Guru

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I've ordered a Logitech G Pro X Superlight to replace my g700s. I reckon my fingers and wrist is gonna thank me, cause i can really feel the difference when i use a light might compared to the relatively heavy g700s.

Dragam1337, Dec 18, 2020

#251

Corrupt^ likes this.
Corrupt^ Ancient Guru

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Dragam1337 said: ↑

I've ordered a Logitech G Pro X Superlight to replace my g700s. I reckon my fingers and wrist is gonna thank me, cause i can really feel the difference when i use a light might compared to the relatively heavy g700s.
Click to expand...

Only downside is that when you get used to such a low weight, everything else will suddenly feel way to heavy in case you ever have to change again

Corrupt^, Dec 19, 2020

#252

Dragam1337 likes this.
Dragam1337 Ancient Guru

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Corrupt^ said: ↑

Only downside is that when you get used to such a low weight, everything else will suddenly feel way to heavy in case you ever have to change again
Click to expand...

True, although I reckon logitech will continue to make those very light weight wireless mice, as they are very popular

Dragam1337, Dec 19, 2020

#253
CrunchyBiscuit Master Guru

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metagamer said: ↑

... and they suffer from double clicking far too much.
Click to expand...

A thousand times this.

CrunchyBiscuit, Dec 19, 2020

#254
Chastity Ancient Guru

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Enjoying 25K dpi setting on my 4K displays with zero pointer acceleration. I can use my G440 mouse pad, and still navigate my screen / games easily. Also love the precise pixel movement control; no need for a Sniper button.

Chastity, Dec 29, 2020

#255
Hypernaut Master Guru

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The MX518 is like having an aimbot. I love it. It's so good for large hands too. The buttons are in places that clumsy people like me don't hit all the time (unlike on the G 502, terrible button placements).

Hypernaut, Jan 1, 2021

#256
Dragam1337 Ancient Guru

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Got my logitech pro x wireless superlight - i like it, but the buttons reqruire more force to click than i'd like. I have issues with the joints in my fingers, and would ideally like as close to zero resistance as possible... it has notably more button push resistance than my g700s. Ofc doesn't help that i have small hands, and that the mouse is too big (as all other gaming mice) for my hand, meaning my fingers dont reach the front of the buttons. But even so, in this regard it is worse than my g700s.

Got a logitech M100 that i use for work, and it honestly fits my hand much better... it is about an inch shorter than the logitech pro x wireless superlight, and has much less button resistance... but it is not wireless and fairly slow.

Edit : just measured them... the M100 is 10,5 cm long (eventhough it says 11,5 on the website) and the pro x is 12,5 cm long. So yeah, a fairly big size difference... why doesnt anyone make proper small gaming mice for people who dont have giant hands -_-

Last edited: Jan 6, 2021

Dragam1337, Jan 6, 2021

#257
big ROBOT bill Ancient Guru

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I'll take it off your hands for $50

big ROBOT bill, Jan 6, 2021

#258
Dragam1337 Ancient Guru

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big ROBOT bill said: ↑

I'll take it off your hands for $50
Click to expand...

Yeah, cause if i dont intend to keep it, i will totally sell it to some random dude on the other side of the world for 1/3 of what i paid, rather than getting a full refund...

Dragam1337, Jan 7, 2021

#259
big ROBOT bill Ancient Guru

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Dragam1337 said: ↑

Yeah, cause if i dont intend to keep it, i will totally sell it to some random dude on the other side of the world for 1/3 of what i paid, rather than getting a full refund...
Click to expand...

Of course

big ROBOT bill, Jan 7, 2021

#260

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