New Upcoming ATI/AMD GPU's Thread: Leaks, Hopes & Aftermarket GPU's

Discussion in 'Videocards - AMD Radeon' started by OnnA, Jul 9, 2016.

  1. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Guest

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    I hope you understood irony of bold part. "Significantly better" is matter of opinion. New generation can be significantly better at something. Imagine that they did hear your plead years ago after bulldozer. No CPUs, no GPUs. No AMD. Monopoly. Very shortsighted.

    I'll give you advice: "Consider everything that does not make sense to you as something that's possibly above your ability to comprehend."

    And then you do what most do: "AMD, save CPU market! AMD, save GPU market!"
    ..."But I am not going to buy that savior CPU/GPU from you as I'll buy something from competition once you saved that stagnant market."
    See that quote of yours?
    I strongly oppose such irrational way of thinking. If I wrote post you did and then read it to validate its rationality, I would never press "Post" button.
     
  2. OnnA

    OnnA Ancient Guru

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    The pricing will be good.
    AMD/ATI will price their products accordingly.
    Personally i don't believe in 500€ Hi end Navi ;) when You have good aftermarket Vega 64 by Sapphire at 399€ :p
    IMhO -
    Hi end Navi starting price will be at ~299€
    Those are small chips, easy to manufacture with good Yield... So pricing at >400€ do not do any good to ATI.
     
  3. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Guest

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    Thing is, that while Sapphire reps could have done some diversion, I do not expect that to be case. More likely it is different way to look at pricing.

    When I write price in USD on our forums, I not only do currency conversion, but remove our 21% tax. As MSRP prices in USD for US are w/o tax.
    It is quite possible that 500 USD/EUR mark was expected asking street price for China... including tax. (China has general VAT 16%.)
    So, that can possibly be 430 USD/EUR excluding tax. But anything is possible. And till we see ins and outs of those chips, we'll not be able to judge if such price is justified.

    As far as acceptable price goes for me:
    If it performs around 2070 and has power under control VAT-less $430 is fine for me.
    If it performs above 2070 and power is kind of OKish, VAT-less $500 is fine for me. (As I can likely tune that power as with any other AMD's GPU. Unless they have some Ryzen-ish optimization in place. But then I would expect Power to be under control.)
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2019
  4. OnnA

    OnnA Ancient Guru

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    Guys it's $499 Singapur Dollar ;)
    News updated.....

    Navi 10 XT = 330 USD
    Navi 10 ("Pro") = 280 USD

    Now that looks #better
     
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  5. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Guest

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    Fixed it for you.

    Btw. That pricing would be too good. Few more days. And then waiting for actual delivery.
     
  6. Exodite

    Exodite Guest

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    It's not a matter of opinion, any metric we care about would be an easily measurable one.

    Personally I would prefer a significantly improved midrange, ie. pushing performance notably in the $150-$250 bracket, but any metric is valid to gauge the success of Navi. It could offer significantly better performance at the high end, or same performance at much better prices.

    What it can't do is offer the same performance at the same price as something already on the market and have any chance of success.

    The reason I would even suggest AMD exiting the market if they can't, or won't, budge the status quo isn't a personal one - it's that I see little financial incentives for them to stick around under such circumstances. They very likely have a long line of success ahead of them with the new consoles, APUs at various levels and powering services like Stadia. They're well on the way to the next level of gaming and entertainment as it is, no need to cater to the discrete PC graphics market.

    I suppose another reason to stick around is that the R&D is already funded by third parties, ie. Sony and Microsoft, so why not take advantage of that and release Navi to the PC crowd as well? That runs into the same problem as the other reasons I mused about though, knowing their inherent handicap why release a product that's clearly less compelling than it should be?

    Obviously I don't have the answers, I'm just hoping that this rumored pricing and performance is incorrect because I can't see it leading anywhere good.
    *sigh* Oh come on, that's not even a remotely comparable situation and you know it.

    The CPU division either sells the chips or it doesn't, there's no plan B. At this point in time discrete PC graphics isn't the only game in town for AMDs GPUs, nor even the most important one I'd wager.
    And this just two posts in. *sigh*

    I'll return the favor then: Go back and re-read what you've actually replied to, you're going out of your way to be offended and succeeding to the detriment of both the argument at hand and the forum as a whole.

    I'm calling it quits on this particular discussion.
     
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  7. Exodite

    Exodite Guest

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    That makes a lot more sense, fingers crossed!
     
  8. OnnA

    OnnA Ancient Guru

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    For Us Vega owners this is not an upgrade :p
    Too much of a good Features already in Vega 1st & 2nd Gen respectively.

    HBCC on HBM2
    "KMD_PrimitiveShaderSupport"=dword:00000001
    ACE's at 16x and many more.

    Not long now, 27.V
     
  9. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Guest

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    Bold, moment you pick particular metric, it becomes subjective matter. "Care" For "A" is opinion since there is B, C, D, ... and in your opinion "A" is important. And personal preferences... how objective.
    Underlined: Crystal ball.

    Again, your asking AMD to quit after not being the best would lead to never having actually marketable GPU architecture for consoles in 1st place. Hell, situation ATi was in at time AMD acquired them was so bad that you would have never got them in 1st place, right?
    And yes, if AMD did quit this market as you did suggest, it would be exactly that. Who else would remain in PC GPU market outside nVidia? Who else would remain in PC CPU market outside intel?

    You make logical contradictions almost on every step you take. And thanks for not writing more of it.
     
  10. hemla

    hemla Master Guru

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    What is the lowest Navi planned, how much could it cost and when would it be released? I know those are speculative questions but I don't read all news so I am bit uninformed.
     

  11. OnnA

    OnnA Ancient Guru

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    Demonstratively it look like this.
    Lowest model will be PCIe only no add. Pin and price shold be less than 100€

    Note:
    Wait until 27 may for more substantial info form ATI/AMD

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Guest

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    RX 640 seems to be rebranded Polaris based RX 550X with 512SP, 32TMUs, 16ROPs. (But it could as well be 640/40/16 variant.)
    Therefore Lowest Navi should have more than 512/640SP or be able to deliver higher performance through higher clock. I would guess that lowest will have 1024 or 1280SP. And cost around ~$100. Basically being just under RX 570 in terms of performance.

    Thing is that AMD's Polaris range is pretty crushed together at this moment. And deciding what price to put on what performance is pretty damn hard. 896SP RX 560 price is just $10 from RX 570 which has 2048SP (and is considerably stronger + is bundled with few valuable games... basically making it quite cheaper).

    Depending on your needs/budget, it may not be bad idea to get RX 570/580 as Navi drops in. (Or maybe even before as Games may no longer be bundled upon release of Navi.)

    I'll add my theory on Low-end Navi:
    - Navi is made to work with GDDR6 and HBM2
    - Neither of those is cheaper per GB than GDDR5
    Therefore pairing super weak GPU with GDDR6 will make card too expensive for being weak and wasting GDDR6 bandwidth

    Lowest Navi having 4x 1GB GDDR6 and ~140~160GB/s bandwidth would still have like 40% more bandwidth than RX 560, therefore I would expect it to have performance somewhere around that. In terms of recent GPUs, it would be around GTX 1050Ti.

    On other hand, there is another option:
    - There are 2GB GDDR6 chips with different bandwidths
    - Therefore there may be 2x 2GB configuration which could easily have 112~128GB/s bandwidth
    - Paired with Navi based GPU performing just above RX-560
    -> It would eat ~45W and have cheaper cooling than RX-560
    -> It would have cheaper (fewer) VRMs phases to match lower power draw
    -> PCB would be cheaper and smaller too as only 2 memory chips
    -> GPU itself would have smaller IMC and graphical part would need fewer SP/TMU/ROPs as performance target would be reached through higher clock. (compared to same RX-560) This would offset 7nm cost making it about same.
    -> Only thing more expensive would be GDDR6
    But altogether even Navi can occupy RX-560 performance spot and be bit more economical there.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2019
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  13. Exodite

    Exodite Guest

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    Oh for sure, I weren't planning to upgrade my GPU anytime soon (if I were aiming at Navi I wouldn't have bought this V56 last November).

    I'm just enthusiastic about what it brings to the table, partly due to previously mentioned reasons and partly because.. uh, let's call it "general hardware enthusiasm". It's the right forum after all. :p
     
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  14. Embra

    Embra Ancient Guru

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    Big Navi should be next year. These price look good, maybe too good. AMD needs to profit as well as gain market size.
     
  15. Truder

    Truder Ancient Guru

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    So will Vega 56/64 be dropped for Navi, with Vega VII being top tier?

    I'm also wondering if Navi would be worthwhile for me to upgrade to or just stick to my Fury til the generation after Navi?

    Vega 64 and above seems like the only option to me currently and I'd rather pay under £300. Don't think Vega 56 is compelling enough currently.
     

  16. Embra

    Embra Ancient Guru

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    I think Navi will be worth an upgrade. The Vegas will be fazed out. Might see some really good deals.
    Vega 56 have OC headroom, but if you are use 1080p the Fury is still a pretty good card.
     
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  17. OnnA

    OnnA Ancient Guru

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    Consider only Vega 64 Nitro+ or similar 3xFan
    If You find deal at ~280-375€ take it :p
    Or if You got lucky & find some XTX -----> no matter, just pick it up and be happy.

    Vega still selling great...
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2019
  18. Chess

    Chess Guest

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    Omna, what is great ?
    I have very limited info ( Steam survey and following Gamers Nexus video: ), but it seems to me that AMD is not doing well at all, exept for some budget cards.
    As much as I really want AMD to pick up their game again ( I was a nVidia fanboy, but after reading their busines pratises, not so much. Going underdog! )

    The chart clearly shows a bit of a peak at launch and a few months after, but after that...

    Let's hope next AMD gen fixes this and makes the consumer as a whole believe a bit more in AMD.
     
  19. OnnA

    OnnA Ancient Guru

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    Im happy with my Vega (Great Tech & very powerfull) :p
    There is no struggle, all in all ATI need good GPU up to 250€
    (IMhO Navi will deliver)
     
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  20. OnnA

    OnnA Ancient Guru

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    AMD "Navi" Features 8 Streaming Engines, Possible ROP Count Doubling?

    AMD's 7 nm "Navi 10" silicon may finally address two architectural shortcomings of its performance-segment GPUs, memory bandwidth, and render-backends (deficiency thereof).
    The GPU almost certainly features a 256-bit GDDR6 memory interface, bringing about a 50-75 percent increase in memory bandwidth over "Polaris 30."
    According to a sketch of the GPU's SIMD schematic put out by KOMACHI Ensaka, Navi's main number crunching machinery is spread across eight shader engines, each with five compute units (CUs).

    Five CUs spread across eight shader engines, assuming each CU continues to pack 64 stream processors, works out to 2,560 stream processors on the silicon.
    This arrangement is in stark contrast to the "Hawaii" silicon from 2013, which crammed 10 CUs per shader engine across four shader engines to achieve the same 2,560 SP count on the Radeon R9 290.
    The "Fiji" silicon that followed "Hawaii" stuck to the 4-shader engine arrangement. Interestingly, both these chips featured four render-backends per shader engine, working out to 64 ROPs.
    AMD's decision to go with 8 shader engines raises hopes for the company doubling ROP counts over "Polaris," to 64, by packing two render backends per shader engine.
    AMD unveils Navi in its May 27 Computex keynote, followed by a possible early-July launch.

    [​IMG]
     
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