Global Foundries 28nm wafer spotted (HD6xxx)

Discussion in 'Videocards - AMD Radeon' started by DSK, Jan 11, 2010.

  1. phill1978

    phill1978 Master Guru

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    true, we need nvidia to be competitive in performance terms and price in order to make both business strive to improve. most technological break through are found during war, if AMD have no competition they can spread the speed of the cards over the next 10 years really finely and control the markets too much, especially seen as cards are already far too fast for modern pc games.
     
  2. Cornelius

    Cornelius Master Guru

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    And they'll continue to be too fast for the time being, as we're currently being held back by the current console generation.
     
  3. Wolfskin07

    Wolfskin07 Member Guru

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    Cards are too fast for modern PC games? Crysis comes to mind as well as ArmA 2:bang:
    I do very much believe it's the otehr way around lol...just look at series 5 cards and Dirt 2.The performance hit they take when playing in DX11 is, to say the least, worrying. By the time Crysis 2 and AVS 3 go retail we'll need newer and faster cards to be able to play tehm properly.

    Correct me if I'm wrong please =P
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2010
  4. Death_Lord

    Death_Lord Guest

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    Its very posible that this is a Update of the 5xxx series to less nanometers, lets call them 5890 and 5990 Series.
     

  5. Sneakers

    Sneakers Guest

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    1) Start with refresh/6000 series now to iron out all issues, and to keep their edge over Nvidia.
    2) With 40 nm yield issues in mind starting to focus on 28 nm NOW doesn't sound that bad, beat nvidia to it and and there will be less demand on the silicon, lower prices, less talk about delays etcetera, possibly keep their lead ( in release time ).
    3) Make money off 5000 before nvidia joins the party, lower prices and preassure nvidia further all this while you develop your new 'almost paid off' 28 nm platform.

    All this sounds like viable business strategys to me. Funny how you agree and dissagree with the quote you picked. It is stupid to commit on refresh/development of 6000 series platform wich probably will be on 28 nm with history as reference. But then the next sentence you claim it makes more sense to start on a refresh/6000 series platform, wich one is it now, can't have it both ways matey :)


    Seems more like you cherrypicked specific words out of context and decided to attack the whole statement/idea on the basis of "6000", while blatantly ignoring the "refresh/" part of the sentence :pirate:
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2010
  6. Passion Fruit

    Passion Fruit Guest

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    You are confusing me with the "refresh/6000 series" statement. Are you referring to them being the same thing? As far as i'm aware, the 6000 series will be their new architecture, where as the 5000 refresh will still be under the 5000 series brand if they do decide to go in that direction.

    40nm issues are currently being worked through. They've solved a lot of the yield issues. ATI have got a lot of cards in production and also Nvidia have their cards in production now too, we should see price drops because of that.

    As far as 28nm is concerned, there wouldn't be a shortage on silicon either way, as GlobalFoundries are the only foundry so far to announce they are working with 28nm nodes. Nvidia won't use them because of their affiliation with AMD, so they'll probably use TSMC who are further behind in 28nm R&D.

    This leaves AMD free to churn out as much silicon as they can without another corporation booking in time to use the same process.
     
  7. DSK

    DSK Banned

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    Hmmm i seen some post on XS saying that they will begin mass production for 28nm around Q4 this year it was in Chinese i think.
     
  8. Passion Fruit

    Passion Fruit Guest

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    Looks more likely that we'll see a refresh in july and then possibly 28nm 6000 series early 2011?
     
  9. Sneakers

    Sneakers Guest

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    Doubt your confused, your chosing to act all confused.

    Obviously refresh/6000 means just that. They will work on a refresh to test the tech and prepare themselves for the next step. If they start doing that now they will be ahead. Beeing ahead is imo a good business strategy - if you dissagree then fine but deliberatly missinterperating is pritty much a waste of your own time. I know you know what I mean and I know the other dude also knew what I meant.

    I think they are gonna go about it the same way they did with 4000 series with the only exception they will put out a "4890x2" wich will be the 5990 to compete with the new "295GTX" wich their old "4870x2" couldn't compete with without a refresh wich they had no time to do with dx11 beeing so close.
    This time around ATi released 5870 and 5970 with like a months gap compared to the 4870x2 wich was several months after the 4870, wich leaves alot more room making a 28 nm dual gpu counterpart once the "395GTX" rolls out as the new performance king.

    Ati got time on their side this round, Nvidia does not. I think ATi will aim to keep the iniative this round meaning.

    1) Roll out a refresh/prepare 6000 series NOW
    2) Once nvidia release their new series Ati can take the prestige crown back with a 28 nm shrink
    3) Be better prepared for the new architechture sooner with an already battle tested shrink

    I think Nvidia well expects this, thats why their fermi is taking so long they need to have alot of overhead so that they can put themsleves on an expected ati 28 nm refresh of the 5000s performance level, else they have been totally outmanouvered. And will be late to the party, and behind in development of a refresh/new series and probably not be the uncontested performance king.

    With all this in mind, I again say that I do think this 28 nm wafer is AMDs and I think from reasons pondered in the 3 posts only AMD would be ready to already step it up to 28 nm.
     
  10. Xendance

    Xendance Guest

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    You know, few of those wafers would look good as christmas tree decorations. Though they could be tad smaller for that.
     

  11. Sneakers

    Sneakers Guest

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    Would make one hell of a newyears eve tox bling bling :banana:
     
  12. Passion Fruit

    Passion Fruit Guest

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    Well choosing to act confused is one of the most ridiculous accusations i've ever heard, but ok...

    With regards to the rest of what you said, yeah i agree it's probably an ATI wafer, but i highly doubt the 5000 series will receive a 28nm refresh. Firstly, they'd have to adapt their chips it 28nm technology... and since GF have already stated the 28nm node won't be ready to fab consumer grade goods until Q4 possible Q1 2011, that leaves it a little late for a refresh but just in time for the 6000 series release, which i add, is a new architecture and is probably already designed around the 28nm process.

    It's easier for AMD just to release a 40nm refresh with optimised cores.
     
  13. Cornelius

    Cornelius Master Guru

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    Depends on your needs. If you have a 30" monitor (or 3!), I can see how you're clinging to the latest generation GPU to keep the latest games happy on your setup.

    I don't have Arma2, but I have Arma... and given the quick turnaround of the sequel, I'll assume it uses the same crappy unoptimized engine. Bohemian Interactive has never been one for making games that run well. Don't get me wrong- I'm a big fan of Arma and the original Operation Flashpoint, but their games never seem to be taking advantage of cutting-edge hardware optimizations, and visual fidelity don't quite reflect hardware requirements, compared to other developers.

    Crysis on the other hand is overkill. Other than the framerate, there is very little visual difference between high and very high quality on most of their modes. They went above and beyond (higher-res textures, high-precision floating point HDR, very long shader programs) simply because they wanted the game to look good. Unfortunately, it's been over 2 years, and the game is barely playable at Very High, yet runs "High" absolutely fine on my system.

    For the resolutions I play (1920x1200, 2xA and 4xAF), most games run absolutely fine on my cheap (~$500) system. Then again, the only thing I've been playing recently has been L4D2 and a whole bunch of older games I picked up for cheap during Steam's awesome holiday sales.

    But I now have that upgrade-my-GPU itch, since I recently picked up a 30" monitor that cost nearly twice my computer cost. :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2010
  14. Sneakers

    Sneakers Guest

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    I have no clue about GF capabilities. But I do think the same situation will unfold again that is Nvidia will have a faster card and they will be the performance king both single gpu and dual gpu. So if ati wanna keep that they will go to 28 nm and bring material costs down, performance up and pave the way for the manufacutring process. The design of the actual new 6000 series chip isn't really the main thing here I think, but the new silicon process - atleast thats how I interperated the few articles / posts I read over the years. It is new, yields are low at start and it is untested.

    Then again Ati will have made alot of money on the 5000s already, and might not need ( from a financial pov ) to be top dog, and have the crown to have a nice revenue. They could probably see it more long term and lower prices having a larger goal. Like we make bank after 50k sold gpus where Nvidia will have to have alot more short term goals in mind ( to start with to not upset the ppl who they lend money off ).

    Beeing the top dog sells gfx cards fast short term. Having the most bang for the buck probably sells you more gfx cards but on a longer termspan. And if your not in dire need of CASH and nummbers NOW ( wich Ati probably isn't ) rushing out a refresh might not at all be on their to do list.

    Looking at it this way makes you really ponder, is this an AMD wafer or not?
     
  15. Passion Fruit

    Passion Fruit Guest

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    Well with regards to the manufacturing process, you design your card around whatever node you are going to fab your card with, which means the GPU die itself can only be fabbed on that node. Reducing the size of the die via a smaller manufacturing process requires adaptation because you are essentially increasing the transistor count as a consiquence. Unfortunately its not as easy as flipping a switch and selecting 28nm and opposed to 40nm.

    The question is, is it really worth the money adapting the GPU for the 28nm node?

    IMHO no it isn't, because it will simply be too late by then for it to be financially worth the trouble, when you can just refresh an already working and proven method.

    ATI will be looking to fab the 6000 series at 28nm and the time scales on which they have said they will be aiming for ties along with when GF will be able to produce consumer good at 28nm.

    The 5870 is extremely power efficient and will be a lot cooler than Fermi, not to mention the 5870 is already cheap to manufacture in comparion to Nvidia because the Radeon chips are smaller.

    Whether they are AMD wafers or not is uncertain, but it won't be outside the realms of possibility if they are trialing and working the kinks out of the architecture so they can transition it to production more easy.
     

  16. Sneakers

    Sneakers Guest

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    Well maybe I'm wrong, but when I think of going from 40 nm to 28 nm I see it as a way of probing the manufacturing in an attempt to maximize profit by making things smaller basically, use less material ( since the material is one of the things you can not really get around when you make things ). So you make it smaller, and make it use less power wich means less heat wich means a possibility of getting higher frequencies out of the slightly remade cores of the gpu ( 5870 got 2 cores right? ), memory and power curcuits.

    Like say your building a car, and you wanna make the same car but with less materials, you make it smaller and on the way you have to modify some things. You then take with you the knowlage of how to make this previous car smaller, to the new model - using same tools techniques but on a new model. Obviously an analogy, there are more to it then this but you know, in a nuthshell.

    I don't know how AMD is reasoning, but just pondering over the various ways you 'can' reason regarding this. Like AMD might not at all have the ambition to be nr1, they are probably happy beeing the nr2 making more money then the nr1 :)..I mean wouldn't you love to make more money then your boss?

    I mean I think it is without a doubt Nvidia will not release anything that doesn't clearly beat what Ati have out today. So are Ati happy beeing nr2 again, I mean they will not be able to do much more then optimize drivers with their 5000s series, people already hit the limit of like 1000-1050 on the core with the 5970 on water, so I mean that baby won't go any faster then that regardless of what aftermarket fan you put on it.

    I donno, I'm just pondering out loud~
     
  17. Exodite

    Exodite Guest

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    As you alluded to yourself in your last post I doubt AMD has any real desire to keep the performance crown, assuming Fermi indeed ends up noticeably faster than 5k.

    nVidia had the crown when 4k vs. 200-series were the main attraction but AMD still soundly "won" that generation due to offering better bang-for-the-buck to the consumer and having better markup on their smaller chips.

    It's likely the situation will be similar with 5k vs. Fermi, in which case AMD is in no rush to push out 6k.
     

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