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Loobyluggs
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Default Federal Communications Commission... - 05-19-2017, 20:28 | posts: 2,178 | Location: UK

...and the net neutrality vote.

We allowed to talk about on the forums? Not sure if it is considered more 'tech' than 'political'.

All I know is (from afar) the FCC ruling means that the internet in the US of A can now be unequal.

Only point I wanted to make is that now, in 2017 with úber-fast internet (FibreToTheProperty myself) will such alterations really, truly and genuinely make a difference?

Need some details from the network engineers here on the forums, more than the political shenanigans that encompass the topic, because it's really not interesting to me, but the technical/IP routing angle is...

If we can steer clear of the political, and focus on the technical, can we discuss this please?
   
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Default 05-19-2017, 20:35 | posts: 1,220 | Location: New Hampsha'

Is a matter of whether or not Internet providers are part of part I or part II of the 1937 law.

Used to be Part I. Is now Part II. Vote is to move it back to Part I.

Upshot is the level of control that the FCC has. Control: Part II > Part I

Make sense?

Last edited by Hootmon; 05-19-2017 at 20:37.
   
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Default 05-19-2017, 20:49 | posts: 7,030 | Location: Washington DC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loobyluggs View Post

Only point I wanted to make is that now, in 2017 with úber-fast internet (FibreToTheProperty myself) will such alterations really, truly and genuinely make a difference?
Yes it can. When you have crazy people that think this...
Quote:
Pai's proposal argues that throttling websites and applications might somehow help Internet users.
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...itle-ii-rules/

edit: Here's another one of his genius discussion topics....
Basically because there are soooo many choices for consumers to get internet access, the ISPs don't have to disclose hidden fees or data caps. I don't know a single person that can get more than one ISP in their area.
Quote:
The FCC also asks whether it should keep rules that require ISPs to make greater disclosures about hidden fees and data caps. The FCC seems to think the broadband market is so competitive that this isn't necessary.
https://arstechnica.com/information-...mers-fcc-says/

Last edited by nhlkoho; 05-19-2017 at 20:57.
   
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Default 05-19-2017, 23:30 | posts: 4,013 | Location: Beech Island SC,USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by nhlkoho View Post
I don't know a single person that can get more than one ISP in their area.
Your kidding right?......I live in an area a lot smaller than DC and we can get Comcast(xfinity), WOW, and AT&T....
   
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Default 05-20-2017, 00:01 | posts: 1,083 | Location: Into the light

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loobyluggs View Post
...and the net neutrality vote.

We allowed to talk about on the forums? Not sure if it is considered more 'tech' than 'political'.

If we can steer clear of the political, and focus on the technical, can we discuss this please?
Politics or not,why they pins reporters on wall?

Reporter manhandled by FCC guards because he asked question

“When Donnelly strolled in an unthreatening way toward FCC Commissioner Michael O’Rielly to pose a question, two guards pinned Donnelly against the wall with the backs of their bodies until O’Rielly had passed," the report said. “O’Rielly witnessed this and continued walking.”

The Press Club report was titled, “Reporter manhandled by FCC guards because he asked question.”

https://arstechnica.co.uk/tech-polic...ing-questions/

On Twitter, Donnelly said he was forced out of the building after trying to talk to O’Rielly and FCC Chairman Ajit Pai:

https://twitter.com/johnmdonnelly/st...28043056914432
   
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Default 05-20-2017, 00:49 | posts: 4,013 | Location: Beech Island SC,USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turanis View Post
Politics or not,why they pins reporters on wall?

Reporter manhandled by FCC guards because he asked question

“When Donnelly strolled in an unthreatening way toward FCC Commissioner Michael O’Rielly to pose a question, two guards pinned Donnelly against the wall with the backs of their bodies until O’Rielly had passed," the report said. “O’Rielly witnessed this and continued walking.”

The Press Club report was titled, “Reporter manhandled by FCC guards because he asked question.”

https://arstechnica.co.uk/tech-polic...ing-questions/

On Twitter, Donnelly said he was forced out of the building after trying to talk to O’Rielly and FCC Chairman Ajit Pai:

https://twitter.com/johnmdonnelly/st...28043056914432
Dude he was finished taking press questions....

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"John, just got saw your tweets. I'm sorry I didn't recognize you in hallway. Had just finished taking press questions."

Maybe Donnelly should show up early if he wants to ask a question.
   
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Default 05-20-2017, 01:06 | posts: 7,030 | Location: Washington DC

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Originally Posted by airbud7 View Post
Your kidding right?......I live in an area a lot smaller than DC and we can get Comcast(xfinity), WOW, and AT&T....
No I'm not. My only option is Comcast. The only option within a 10 mile radius around me is Comcast. And they are the absolute worst when it comes to hidden fees. My bill slowly went up a couple dollars a month from $77 to over $130 with no change in service. At least they removed the data cap.....for now.
   
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Default 05-20-2017, 01:15 | posts: 4,013 | Location: Beech Island SC,USA

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Originally Posted by nhlkoho View Post
No I'm not. My only option is Comcast. The only option within a 10 mile radius around me is Comcast. And they are the absolute worst when it comes to hidden fees. My bill slowly went up a couple dollars a month from $77 to over $130 with no change in service. At least they removed the data cap.....for now.
Yea^...Comcast sent me a bill for $700+ and I called them and said/ WTF is this and they said we don't know but will correct the bill and I said OK/good...

Guess how much my next months bill was?.....Yep!> $700+ again and I was like Grrrrr!...it was rinse and repeat for 3 months

They are the fastest though and know it and I hate that...
   
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Default 05-20-2017, 01:54 | posts: 9,842 | Location: Republic of Kekistan

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Originally Posted by airbud7 View Post
Yea^...Comcast sent me a bill for $700+ and I called them and said/ WTF is this and they said we don't know but will correct the bill and I said OK/good...

Guess how much my next months bill was?.....Yep!> $700+ again and I was like Grrrrr!...it was rinse and repeat for 3 months

They are the fastest though and know it and I hate that...
$700?! They're providing you 10GBps internet or something? lol.
   
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Default 05-20-2017, 02:26 | posts: 4,013 | Location: Beech Island SC,USA

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Originally Posted by lucidus View Post
$700?! They're providing you 10GBps internet or something? lol.
Comcast service is really good but there billing dept is very incompetent...
   
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Default 05-20-2017, 03:59 | posts: 2,257 | Location: TX

This whole FCC and Net Neutrality thing makes me wonder how much it will change how things are with my ISP being Google Fiber. Also, in regards to ISP choice mentioned earlier, from 2002 to 2010 AT&T ADSL (1.5Mbps/384Kbps) was the only option for my house. Late 2010 TWC moved in and AT&T actually left my street, so we were back down to a single choice until very recently GF came to our street. My uncle who lives very close by has had 6 ISP's on his street for as long as we can remember and now has 7 with GF in town. Crazy stuff!
   
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Default 05-20-2017, 13:11 | posts: 10,612 | Location: Toledo

What's interesting about anti net neutrality is that the main thing that has kicked it off is online streaming services cutting into cable subscriptions. ISP's have a vested interest in pulling margins from TV programming and movies. A free internet threatens that. So of course they're going to fight that. I don't really think they care at all about restricting general information and such behind paywalls. The possibility is obviously there, but they had years to fight to do that and didn't.

Frankly, most Americans don't care at all about this issue to begin with, so with enough money thrown at it and the right political climate (aka, right now), it's basically inevitable.

Infrastructure laying and competition is another issue entirely that stems from the high buy in costs of utility companies. The same monopolies and poor rollout speed happens in the power industry too. Large country problems. Canada is even worse about it.

Last edited by IcE; 05-20-2017 at 13:19.
   
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Default 05-20-2017, 14:17 | posts: 2,178 | Location: UK

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Originally Posted by IcE View Post
What's interesting about anti net neutrality is that the main thing that has kicked it off is online streaming services cutting into cable subscriptions. ISP's have a vested interest in pulling margins from TV programming and movies. A free internet threatens that. So of course they're going to fight that. I don't really think they care at all about restricting general information and such behind paywalls. The possibility is obviously there, but they had years to fight to do that and didn't.

Frankly, most Americans don't care at all about this issue to begin with, so with enough money thrown at it and the right political climate (aka, right now), it's basically inevitable.

Infrastructure laying and competition is another issue entirely that stems from the high buy in costs of utility companies. The same monopolies and poor rollout speed happens in the power industry too. Large country problems. Canada is even worse about it.
Yes, but will the natural increases in speed make a difference?

If you can get a 1 GB symmetric connection - will the law have any real and tangible impact to general usage, or will the data caps (which is a foreign thing to me, as I have not had any data caps ever in my life and never ever will) compartmentalisation force people to only use certain types of media providers online than others?

In other words, if you have data caps, but only if you step outside of the sites the ISP's want you to use, will this have an impact.

Side-bar, Datacaps are just the dumbest things ever.
   
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Default 05-20-2017, 15:36 | posts: 7,030 | Location: Washington DC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loobyluggs View Post
Yes, but will the natural increases in speed make a difference?

If you can get a 1 GB symmetric connection - will the law have any real and tangible impact to general usage, or will the data caps (which is a foreign thing to me, as I have not had any data caps ever in my life and never ever will) compartmentalisation force people to only use certain types of media providers online than others?

In other words, if you have data caps, but only if you step outside of the sites the ISP's want you to use, will this have an impact.

Side-bar, Datacaps are just the dumbest things ever.
Comcast's streaming service is exempt from their datacaps. So yes, regardless of how fast your service is, ISPs giving preference to one service hurts competition. The caps were removed at one point but they've started reintroducing them again in some southern states. Even a 500GB cap is too low for the size of today's games, HD/4K video streaming. I frequently hit 750GB+ a month
   
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Default 05-20-2017, 17:18 | posts: 2,178 | Location: UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by nhlkoho View Post
Comcast's streaming service is exempt from their datacaps. So yes, regardless of how fast your service is, ISPs giving preference to one service hurts competition. The caps were removed at one point but they've started reintroducing them again in some southern states. Even a 500GB cap is too low for the size of today's games, HD/4K video streaming. I frequently hit 750GB+ a month
That's just...disgusting. That makes me feel sick to my stomach.

So, long and short is: use the services we want, and you get everything we want you to - use another services, and you will pay for it through the nose.

That, is just so violently and aggressively making a company with enough money basically surplant any chance of ever being in competition with another company. That's just insane.

But, back to my point on speed - how much of a difference would it make to actual usable speed if internet speeds are insanely high?
   
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Default 05-20-2017, 19:14 | posts: 19,810 | Location: US East Coast

Net Neutrality became a talking point because companies like AT&T and ComCast wanted to charge companies like NetFlix, Hulu, Amazon, YouTube and other sites like them for access to their customers and then wanted the right to charge customers an additional fee for accessing those services. It's an anti-competitive practice. It's also anti-consumer. Instead of trying to block competition, which is actually illegal, cable companies need to evolve. Companies that refuse to evolve, deserve to fail. Comcast has gone so far as to actually threaten the FCC because Wheeler refused to bow down to them. The current administration is completely anti-consumer and as such, every regulating body is shifting that direction. Regulations that were put in place to protect consumers are being lifted. The end result will be higher prices on everything and an eventual economic collapse if it continues. The current administration has even admitted that their goal is deconstruction of the government and complete deregulation of business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nhlkoho View Post
I don't know a single person that can get more than one ISP in their area.
Most areas have at least 2 options....if you consider dialup an option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by airbud7 View Post
Dude he was finished taking press questions....

Quote
"John, just got saw your tweets. I'm sorry I didn't recognize you in hallway. Had just finished taking press questions."

Maybe Donnelly should show up early if he wants to ask a question.
Whether he's "finished taking press questions" or not....he still works for the American people. The current administration has done everything possible to make it clear that they don't believe they're public servants. They think the American people work for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IcE View Post
What's interesting about anti net neutrality is that the main thing that has kicked it off is online streaming services cutting into cable subscriptions. ISP's have a vested interest in pulling margins from TV programming and movies. A free internet threatens that. So of course they're going to fight that. I don't really think they care at all about restricting general information and such behind paywalls. The possibility is obviously there, but they had years to fight to do that and didn't.

Frankly, most Americans don't care at all about this issue to begin with, so with enough money thrown at it and the right political climate (aka, right now), it's basically inevitable.

Infrastructure laying and competition is another issue entirely that stems from the high buy in costs of utility companies. The same monopolies and poor rollout speed happens in the power industry too. Large country problems. Canada is even worse about it.
Verizon has been caught throttling connections to YouTube and NetFlix in the past, trying to deter their customers from using those services.


   
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Default 05-20-2017, 19:20 | posts: 19,810 | Location: US East Coast

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loobyluggs View Post
That's just...disgusting. That makes me feel sick to my stomach.

So, long and short is: use the services we want, and you get everything we want you to - use another services, and you will pay for it through the nose.

That, is just so violently and aggressively making a company with enough money basically surplant any chance of ever being in competition with another company. That's just insane.

But, back to my point on speed - how much of a difference would it make to actual usable speed if internet speeds are insanely high?
A few decades ago, my state actually passed laws prohibiting unwanted competition for utility companies. If the phone company doesn't want competition, no other company can legally move into an area they provide service to. If the cable company doesn't want competition, no other company can legally more into an area they provide service to. If an ISP doesn't want competition, no other company can move into an area they provide service to. I'm sure you can see where this is going.... The only reason my area has 2 ISPs is because one originally offered cable service (Cox Comm) and the other originally offered phone service (VZW). Since they were both providing separate services in the area, they were allowed to offer services to compete with each other. However, Comcast and AT&T can't legally move into my area because VZW and Cox Comm don't want them here, making it illegal for them to even attempt to. It's a really screwed up law....especially given the fact that VZW and Cox Comm have the ability to decide whether or not it's a criminal act for another company to attempt to compete with them.


   
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Default 05-20-2017, 19:46 | posts: 4,013 | Location: Beech Island SC,USA

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Originally Posted by sykozis View Post
A few decades ago, my state actually passed laws prohibiting unwanted competition for utility companies. If the phone company doesn't want competition, no other company can legally move into an area they provide service to. If the cable company doesn't want competition, no other company can legally more into an area they provide service to. If an ISP doesn't want competition, no other company can move into an area they provide service to. I'm sure you can see where this is going.... The only reason my area has 2 ISPs is because one originally offered cable service (Cox Comm) and the other originally offered phone service (VZW). Since they were both providing separate services in the area, they were allowed to offer services to compete with each other. However, Comcast and AT&T can't legally move into my area because VZW and Cox Comm don't want them here, making it illegal for them to even attempt to. It's a really screwed up law....especially given the fact that VZW and Cox Comm have the ability to decide whether or not it's a criminal act for another company to attempt to compete with them.
Thats a bucked up law right there^

I often do work for a feller over in augusta that's a day trader and he has 3 ISPs ....comcast/wow and at&t
   
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Default 05-20-2017, 20:13 | posts: 2,214 | Location: Langley,B.C. Canada

If people don't wake up that this change in policy will affect them whether they are in the States or not they will be dealing with slower speeds for certain services world wide unless they pay.It's a form of double billing Netflix charges you and then your isp charges you for access it's anti consumer.The current FCC head was a lawyer for a major telecom company that argued against net neutrality rules.
   
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Default 05-20-2017, 21:22 | posts: 2,178 | Location: UK

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If people don't wake up that this change in policy will affect them whether they are in the States or not they will be dealing with slower speeds for certain services world wide unless they pay.It's a form of double billing Netflix charges you and then your isp charges you for access it's anti consumer.The current FCC head was a lawyer for a major telecom company that argued against net neutrality rules.
Try and keep it technical 'brah, or this will derail into the "P" word too quickly.

Will the increase in internet speeds have any impact on such a ruling?
   
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Default 05-20-2017, 21:25 | posts: 2,214 | Location: Langley,B.C. Canada

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loobyluggs View Post
Try and keep it technical 'brah, or this will derail into the "P" word too quickly.

Will the increase in internet speeds have any impact on such a ruling?
Not unless the resulting throttling is done on a percentage basis rather than a fixed rate.
   
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Default 05-21-2017, 01:10 | posts: 4,013 | Location: Beech Island SC,USA

The internet infrastructure of where you live determines the outcome of this topic. /from your view point.
   
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Default 05-21-2017, 03:34 | posts: 7,030 | Location: Washington DC

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The internet infrastructure of where you live determines the outcome of this topic. /from your view point.
Not really. Once one ISP starts throttling or charging other companies like Netflix/Hulu, etc... a fee to connect to their customers, it's going to be done everywhere. It has nothing to do with what infrastructure is in your area because believe it or not, the entire network of fibre and copper is owned by very few companies. Comcast and Verizon could just start charging other ISPs more to lease their network which in turn will affect you.

Edit: to the original question. Will the average user even realize they are being throttled? Probably not, but as 4K streaming becomes more mainstream, you can bet that if everyone's movies are constantly buffering every 2 minutes that people will start to complain

Last edited by nhlkoho; 05-21-2017 at 03:37.
   
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Default 05-21-2017, 10:58 | posts: 1,083 | Location: Into the light

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Originally Posted by airbud7 View Post
Yea^...Comcast sent me a bill for $700+ and I called them and said/ WTF is this and they said we don't know but will correct the bill and I said OK/good...

Guess how much my next months bill was?.....Yep!> $700+ again and I was like Grrrrr!...it was rinse and repeat for 3 months

They are the fastest though and know it and I hate that...
You accept and pay 700$ to them??? Great!NOT

Thats why Google Fiber is life,its everything.
Big comm companies still have ADSL and "dont have money" to invest in fiber optics.

Last edited by Turanis; 05-21-2017 at 17:30.
   
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Default 05-21-2017, 17:29 | posts: 1,083 | Location: Into the light

For UK users:

Theresa May Wants To Regulate The Internet

The Conservative manifesto sets out a distinct vision for the future of the internet in which an anarchic world run by private companies is supplemented by substantial government intervention.

"Some people say that it is not for government to regulate when it comes to technology and the internet," it states. "We disagree."

When the manifesto was unveiled by Theresa May in Halifax on Thursday morning, news bulletins understandably focused on the party's taxation policy and Brexit plans rather than the technology section at the end.

Senior Tories confirmed to BuzzFeed News that the phrasing indicates that the government intends to introduce huge restrictions on what people can post, share and publish online.

The plans will allow Britain to become "the global leader in the regulation of the use of personal data and the internet", the manifesto claims.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson...bwR#.npqzYXmpQ
   
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