Subwoofer Phase

Discussion in 'Soundcards, Speakers HiFI & File formats' started by signex, Aug 6, 2016.

  1. signex

    signex Ancient Guru

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    So i got this new 10" JBL subwoofer, E150P but sadly i found out they're not that good.
    But i have to make the best of it, it actually doesn't sound any better then my other 8" JBL subwoofer. (It does go way louder, but i care about that it's punchy and not boomy)

    I've been looking around how to setup the subwoofer as in crossover and found out this sub has a phase switch and i have no idea what it does.
    I tried switching between 180 and 0 but couldn't hear any difference.

    So to you audiophiles, what does it do and whats better, 180 or 0?
     
  2. fry178

    fry178 Ancient Guru

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    has to match your setup.
    most should be better with the switch to 0., but try the other position as well,
    and which ever gives you (audibly) "more" bass, is the correct one.
    and at 10in, it should be less "punchy" than the 8in.
    most "kicking" type woofers in car setups i've heard, are 6 or 8", but they do require tight control (amp/xover) to sound good.

    for me the logitech Z2300 had a really nice woofer (8') that would go low (rap/hiphop) but also do quicker stuff like most electronic music.

    i do like the JL audio subs (high SQ at high volume),
    but (car) subs need proper power (2-3 times listed rms), high dampening (above 250-300), and a good xover (24dB/oct) to really do their magic.
    most ppl i talked to, were running "my" 12W7 (rated for 500-1000w max) with amps putting out 1-2KW (yea real output), which made it sound much "tighter" than with the 720w amp i had.

    and even that ur not using it for a car, you might wanna try a woofer from the WXv2 series (that u can use with existing amp/xover, build the box from mdf yourself)
    http://www.jlaudio.com/10wxv2-4-car-audio-wxv2-subwoofer-drivers-92175

    or if you have some cash laying around, maybe get the 8 or 10" Dominion, or if birthday/xmas are on the same day, a fathom v2 would be nice ;-)

    http://www.jlaudio.com/home-audio-powered-subwoofers-fathom-v2
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2016
  3. signex

    signex Ancient Guru

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    The problem is, nothing makes the sub sound different, either crossover or the switches.

    Could it be cause the sub doesn't have that purple input? it only has red/white.
    I plugged the cable into the red one advised by some people and it goes to the purple input on the receiver.

    About the size, i heard it doesn't matter, that bigger can also be better.

    Atm i can't afford a brand new sub, i could look around for a used sub like this one.
    I have the feeling that the build is a bit too small for the 10inch wich makes it sound so booming.

    Long time ago i had a 10inch studio sub wich didn't cost too much and it had such a powerful punch to it and that thing was huge and long. (M-Audio SBX10 340W)
    And the crossover did made a difference on that one clearly audible.
     
  4. Tom F

    Tom F Ancient Guru

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    Bigger is always better than better with subs. It's physics, innit :)

    A big cone has to move less far to displace the same volume as air as a small one - that, coupled with better efficiency, makes big drivers punchier.

    To get good extension in a small box, the sub has to be ported. Ported subs generally (note always) suck - they go low, but lack punch. That studio sub was probably sealed - won't have had the same extension, but it will hit way harder and be much cleaner.

    With the phase switch, sit where you'll normally be listening to it, and play a bass sweep. Whichever has the most even bass (no quiet / loud bits) is where you want the switch.

    Have you tried putting the sub in a different position in the room? That makes a huuuuge difference. I position mine by putting it in the listening position, and crawling around on the floor to hear where the bass sounds the best. I then put the sub there :)
     

  5. signex

    signex Ancient Guru

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    This is confusing, i hear all kinds of things smaller sounds tighter and bigger is better.

    I found a 12inch sub wich doesn't cost too much and it's from Klipsch, if you say it's a ton better i'll order it right away!
    It's this model: Klipsch S-12SW, 500W active subwoofer, so please tell me if it's good or not.
    The 10inch model is just 30 euro's cheaper so i thought better buy the 12inch for not too much more money.

    I'll get rid of my subwoofers if this one isn't pleasing me and just use the ones in my floorstanding speakers i've been spending hundreds of euro's and got disappointed again and again.

    This will be my last purchase then i'm done with it.
     
  6. mezball

    mezball Master Guru

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    First thing is to verify the Yamaha you purchase is actually working correctly, or that the settings at the reciever/preamp had not changed?

    You said no matter what switches you touch on the sub you hear no change? That is not right. If you switch the phase from 0 to 180 or vise versa you will hear a difference! Also, verify the internal subwoofer's crossover is working. If you turn it all the way to its max cutoff it should be boomy, and when turned down it should not. If this is not happening, the sub is defective.

    With that said, the Klipsch shoudl be a step up from the Yahama. As for larger woofer compared to small that is another topic that should be researched. There are many different designs that work, and others that fail completely. Ported subs will play louder, then an sealed sub if everything is equal as in driver, and watts. They were designed for efficiency. There are some really good ported subs out there. SVS, and HSU are example.

    Bottom line, you pay for what you get. Sure there are budget subs out there, but they won't compare to more pricer ones.
     
  7. signex

    signex Ancient Guru

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    No it's not a Yamaha subwoofer, it's a JBL E150P subwoofer and yes none of the switch/crossover is working as far as i can hear anyway.

    I found also a Jamo J 12 for 299,99 it's a bit more expensive but i can see it's very well build.
    The cabinet seems long wich is satisfying as i had a 10inch sub wich was long and had such powerful punch to it.

    EDIT: I think i heard the difference just now turning the crossover all the way down, it doesn't sound so boomy anymore.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2016
  8. mezball

    mezball Master Guru

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    My bad, I knew it was JBL, for some reason Yamaha was stuck in my head. Also, replying
    from my phone does not help.

    Ported sub enclosures for the most part will be larger then their similar size driver sealed version.
     
  9. mezball

    mezball Master Guru

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    You should more then think you hear a difference, you should.

    I could not find an Klipsch S-12SW per google, but did find an Klipsch R-12SW, which is identical in size, power, and specs to the Jamo. The woofers look the same except the color, and the claimed material for Jamo is Aluminized Polyfiber, with Klipsch as IMG(Injection Molded Graphite). But in 2005 Klipsch purchased the brand name and key assets of Jamo, so this doesn't surprise me. Both should be good.

    To bad you don't live in the states, I would highly recommend a little higher budget, and go with a sub from SVS like their PB-2000/PC-2000, or even the sub from Outlaw, Ultra-X12. There would be no disappointment there.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2016
  10. signex

    signex Ancient Guru

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    I got my money back from a refund, so i can order now if i want and get the new subwoofer tomorrow.

    I'm actually leaning towards going back to my trusty JBL 200/230 after listening to it again.
    It packs so much punch, yes the sound gets bad when i turn the volume waaay up but i'll never push it that high anyway in my room.

    The subwoofers you mentioned, can i get them in Holland? cause i'm not going to order from abroad.
     

  11. mezball

    mezball Master Guru

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    Unfortunately, I do not think you can. But, I hear nothing but good things about SVS. They have have a 45 day no question ask return policy with free shipping both ways, but I don't know if that is only for U.S.

    I would write to them and find out. They do have international dealers. Here an link to the international dealers:

    http://www.svsound.com/pages/international-dealers
     
  12. signex

    signex Ancient Guru

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    Holy crap dude they are expensive lol i can't afford it.
    Their cheapest subwoofer is 499 euro. :wanker:
     
  13. signex

    signex Ancient Guru

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    Well i couldn't hold myself and bought the Jamo J 10 SUB, i hear nothing but good things about it and it has more power wich i need even though my room is not that big.

    At loud volumes the JBL 200/230 just can't keep up and distorts.

    Some pictures:

    https://ic.tweakimg.net/ext/i/2000552750.jpeg
    https://ic.tweakimg.net/ext/i/2000985627.jpeg
     
  14. mezball

    mezball Master Guru

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    What happened to the Jamo J12 or the Klipsch you mentioned? Update when you get the J 10, curious how much better it is to your previous subs. Also, how big is the room that the sub is in?
     
  15. signex

    signex Ancient Guru

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    Not enough money, i bought a new monitor too.

    It sounds really good, and thank god i can switch off the standby mode.

    My room is pretty small, i'd say about 4 by 10ft?

    It rattled some stuff downstairs at half the volume so it passes my expectations lol.
    Not as tight as i hoped for, but i'll keep it.

    I'm pretty sure the 12inch would have been overkill.

    Now to get some fitting bookshelf speakers, i found the Jamo S622's for 59,99 a piece and they're 80W so easier on my receiver then my current 130W floorstanding speakers.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2016

  16. thatguy91

    thatguy91 Guest

    This is put 'very simply', so it's the principle of how it works. The subwoofer phase swaps around the speaker pushing out and the speaker pulling in. If the speaker is trying to push out, or pull in, and the resulting wave has peaks and troughs. If these peaks meet troughs, the sound is partially cancelled, however if peaks and troughs somewhat align, you get a higher amplitude (more sound).

    Here's perfect cancellation. That's bad for bass:
    [​IMG]

    Here is an example of waves slightly out of phase. I use this because you will never get perfection as it also depends on the listening point!
    [​IMG]

    If you listen to the subwoofer up close and change the phase, you will notice no difference. You will only notice it when you are sitting in your normal seating position. If you can, play some music and have someone switch the phase as you are listening, you should hear a difference.
     
  17. xodius80

    xodius80 Master Guru

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    room size materials, ornaments all these things affect sound, you may be in need of room calibration.

    acoustic room treatment

    google that and see if you are a victim of such environmental calamity.


    ps: i gave up and got me a good pair of cans.
    you say small room?, there is your starting culprit.
     
  18. signex

    signex Ancient Guru

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    Well my old JBL subwoofer played excellent no matter the position.
    Now it's next to our TV desk, not even in a corner and it sounds perfect and punchy and powerful.

    I can't put it in the corner atm, i've got a floorstanding speaker there wich i can't put anywhere else.

    EDIT: I'll try and get rid of these big speakers, but it will s*ck cause they sound unreal, so clear, i haven't heard anything like it.

    Also, i can hook up 2 subwoofers to my receiver so i could get a second Jamo J 10 subwoofer.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2016
  19. nz3777

    nz3777 Ancient Guru

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    I have a 8 inch True-audio sub and 2 KLH bookshelfs running through a Marantz a/v receiver. What do you guys think about the KLH brand? Are they any good? Thanks.
     
  20. thatguy91

    thatguy91 Guest

    Do you like the sound? That's the most important thing, as audio is very much not only subjective to the individual's taste, but also the environment. Using bookshelf speakers as main speakers isn't ideal though, they are meant more as the back and side speakers for surround sound systems where the majority of the sound is still provided by the front two speakers.
     

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